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How do you get mutual aid to follow ICS?
I am a member of a small volunteer department and we have a problem with mutual aid companies working within the incident command system. Like all volunteer departments we are short handed and rely on mutual aid on all structure fires for man power and tankers. We had a structure fire recently and it became a major problem. Our asst. chief was in command and no one reported to him as they arrived. We also have a problem of a paid firefighter showing up and barking orders without confering with command. He almost got two firefighters killed because he knew the fire was in the ceiling and did not tell command. He sent them into the structure with that knowledge, and the ceiling collapsed on them. Fortunately they got out. We heard a recording of the radio trafic last night and it was evident that NONE of the other companies would go through command for anything. The asst. chief did not hear any of the radio traffic due to a poorly designed radio system. I'm sure we may be the only department in the area that trains and actually use the incident command system and the other departments all freelance to some extent on their scenes and try to on ours.
It sounds like command was out of the loop, but sometimes you do several jobs at the same time due to manpower.
How do we inbed the use if incident command into these other departments and get them to work with our scene commander without throwing them off the scene and/or PO'ing them in the process. It has ben done in the past, but we are trying to work with the other departments, even though they don't follow the rules.
It sounds like command was out of the loop, but sometimes you do several jobs at the same time due to manpower.
How do we inbed the use if incident command into these other departments and get them to work with our scene commander without throwing them off the scene and/or PO'ing them in the process. It has ben done in the past, but we are trying to work with the other departments, even though they don't follow the rules.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Regina Tribley on
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An accountalbilty systems is the most important factor. But if it is not done right it is of no use, if done correctly it reduces alot of problems created at a scene. My department is also a small rural department that relies heavy on mutual aid. On the way to the scene firefighter on each truck are to hand over one ID Tag to be placed on the apparatus ID Tag ring that stays in the cap or with the operator. Reguardless of the situation they must turn a tag over to the accountability officer before going anywhere. The accountalility officer should have a tag for every fire member on scene reguardless of deparment and noted on their board where the fire member will be. If a fire member is to go into a structure they must place their last ID Tag on the portable post placed at the door. No one is to go from one job or spot to another without giving notice to the AC Officer. And last but not least there is no Freelancing. Freelancing is what gets people killed everyday. If you are caught freelancing you will be thrown off the the fire scene, if you are a member of our department after the call the Fire Chief will literaly kick your *** and you will be terminated permantely from our department. If a mutual aid department can not follow our Incident Command System then we will no longer request them for mutual aid, we will go to the next avaliable department. I know this may sound like we would lose precious time, but we would rather lose time then additional lives. At the end of each call our first duty is to all come home reguardless of what we did or couldn't do. Remember, that house was burning before you got called to it, while you drove to your station, and while your drove from your station to the scene. I am not saying this as disregard for savings someones life, I would like to see less firefighter deaths to calls that were not a possible save.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh McElroy on
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Simply put, place one representative from each outside agency in the command post. This allows for communication(they have to have their own companies radio channel), it assists the IC in command and control, it allows the firefighters from each department to hear a familiar voice and not wonder "Who the heck is this person ordering around", and it gives the IC a better understanding of the mutual aid's ability i.e. does this company specialized equiptment and so on and so forth. Its the unified command idea and it works well, even if the outside agencies do not have the trianing. You simply call on the radio and request a senior member to the CP. If you notice that the outside agency does not have the training, offer to train with them. A better idea is to ask the agency if they would like to split the cost and have someone come and teach it to everyone at once, so everyone is on the same page. I truely feel that at this point, we should all be very close to NIMS compliance, one for our own safety and accountability, and two because now the government will not be giving grants to depts. that are not compliant. Also, if something were to happen, you will atleast have paper backing when its time for court. Just my opinion, hope it helps. Be safe
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Permalink Reply by jdstamp on
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One thing that can be done during an incident is; When mutual aid is requsted by the on scene commander, have the mutual aid companies stage in a location seperate from the scene, and call them on scene as needed and as directed. I've seen instances where the mutual aid companies are very excited and are going "balls to the wall" to the scene, if they are directed to a seperate location, it make them think, Why are we going here instead of the fire?
Once staged the I.C. can dispatch engines, tenders and manpower from their location to the scene in an oganized fashon.
A staging area will stop mutual aid from barging in on the scene, and lower radio traffic to only communications that are absolutly needed
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Permalink Reply by Tim on
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We were trained that the incident command system is a fundamental part of any incident. Communication and coordination of the different teams (interior, RIT, ventilation, etc...) is crucial to the safety of the personnel on scene. Being 23 miles away from the closest "paid" dept, we really don't get the chance to work with those guys. We do call for and go out on mutual aid but it is another rural dept that we work with. Freelancing has never been an issue. "Rural Metro" has checked in with our command for assignment (as well as our crew checked in with their command) every time. We also have never had a situation where one dept tried to "muscle" another one off of a scene, between Rural Metro and ourselves. However, as documented on another post ("Should volunteer depts do rescues") this has happened between the paid department and another rural dept across the valley. I might be a little overboard here but I am seeing a pattern. I just don't understand the motivation in needing to take control of a scene away from a rural dept. as well as freelancing on a scene and not contacting and coordinating with an IC from a rural dept. Is the thinking here that the rural dept is somehow less qualified? This, of course, is absurd. We have to go through the same academy, train on a regular basis and have handled many a situation all on our own. The only thing the city dept would have over us is their call volume. If you would ask me to come up with a solution, I would say that people need to put their egos aside and concentrate on the task at hand. It's about team work. The definition of "team" is a group of individuals working toward the same goal and working TOGETHER to try to achieve that goal. A team has to have a leader in order to work under one mindset. A leader can only lead if everyone is willing to follow. If nobody follows then the whole machine breaks down (I learned this in the military). When the machine breaks down, in our case, people die. Does that portray the importance of working together enough? Great discussion, Bill.
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Permalink Reply by greg on
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I also belong to a small vol. dept. You are correct as it seems that the ICS. is at times not used as it should be.
I have also seen situations in which injury and or death has been avoided only by luck and if the ICS would have been used as it was ment to be the incidents would have been avoided all together. I have been part of and overseen tabletop trainning in which we would invite depts. we use for mutual aid to training (even if there was a slight possibility they would respond to our calls) and in those trainings we would use the ICS. It was then very obvious which depts. did not use or had used it very little and in future table top disscusions we would express its importance and why it would be required for depts. responding to our calls to use the ICS. This did have positive results, It didnt fix the problem all together. All fire dept. personel in every dept. should make it a point to follow proper fire ground procedures and policies and personel that "freelance" should be removed from duty immediately! All officers should adopt this attitude. If a mutual aid dept. "freelances" the department should be removed from the incident immediately before futher damage is done. This should be followed by a letter to the dept. or individual outlinning why the above actions were implemented and that further attempts to do the same wont be tolerated in any manner. It is always better to deal with a angry individual or dept. than it is to deal with the damage they may cause because of there lack of training or there unwillingness to comply with proper procecures and policies. Consistant training with mutual aid depts. is a must to get everybody on the same page. Making mutual aggreements to work in the same manner consistantly usualy has positive outcomes.
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Hi Greg. You make a very good point. I don't think many people were thinking as drastically as removing the freelance company from the scene but, you know what, I agree with it. You are absolutely right in that a company who freelances on scene is a detriment to everyone around them. You are also correct in thinking part of the solution is training with neighboring companies and using the ICS system in these trainings. I think the problem is a little attitude, though. As I stated before, we have a neighboring company that we work together with, from time to time. We get a chance to train with them once every couple of years. However, when we mutually respond together its like we work together every day. I believe this is because of a standard that every fire company knows already. The ICS system. The city department, on the other hand, is the only company in this area that actually competes for control of the scene. I know it seems like I pick on the city department allot but it's true. Maybe because it's more like a "9-5" job with them, or maybe the thinking is that the rural "volly" department is less qualified. I really don't know. I'm just grasping at straws here. One thing I do know, which you also pointed out, freelancing on a scene is probably the single greatest way to turn a scene into a disaster. Again, kudos to Bill for starting this discussion. This is a thing that needs to get aired out.
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Permalink Reply by firefighter1and2 on
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thats an easy one---tell them to go home--because if its your fire scene and one of them was to get hurt guess who will be getting the blame. in my area if you are not caught up on NIMS we get in trouble, i have always wanted to ask the county police if they even know what NIMS is . we have a problem with other departments showing up with all there trucks, only when we need tenders, they will bring it all and mess up our water shuttle operation.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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This only works in the cases where the people actually sat through the class, and completed the test. All too often too many people are using a universal answer key and just printing the certs.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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So, the same would still hold true.
Pencil whipped NIMS did we? Don't understand the process?
Then, you still go home. No one will stick around long at my scene if they muck it up.
They will leave by their choice or mine, but either way, they leave.
It's NIMS. It's not baby sitting.
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I agree with ya here chief. After everyone completes the REQUIRED training (yes this comes down from the feds) there should no longer be issues with pissing matches or freelancing on fire scenes. Everything should be laid out (yes its still flexible through the IC) as to your assignment before entering the scene, and it is your job to execute that job and then seek additional work through the IC.
If your part of a company that allows free lancing, or bumper leaning, you won't be welcome at one of my scenes. (People who lean on a bumper only show up for the glory and not the work) I did see that NIMS added another aspect to the testing, you have to "check off" a box saying you did it as part of an individual effort, and not the effort of a group. (pass the answer key)
It won't be long and there will most likely be improvements to the system, and also I am sure that since all these companies need federal grants (oh yeah thats right you won't be able to apply for grants without being NIMS trained as a department) that things will start to iron out. Remember, ICS through NIMS is only as good as the IC and the others on scene allow it to be. I have seen it work, I am sure Chiefs seen it work (through your posting's I have read) and others have to. It is time for everyone to get off their rear ends and get this training, and start complying with the federal laws
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This is an option, but also remember if you have a fire in town and the nearest town sits in their station with valuable water equipment and resources because they don't follow ICS, the public criticism would be very intense. I would start with talks to the folks who won't follow ICS first, and then try some joint trainings (always using ICS). When all that has been accomplished and they still don't choose to follow ICS, I would call their tankers, and if the public had criticism be prepared to issue a statement as to why.
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