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PPV and PPA
I did an internet class yesterday at the fire station on PPA (positve pressure attac). I have been around the fire service for many years and alot of this class goes agianst everything I have learned over the years. I would love to implement what I learned but I would like to know if anybody is activly using PPA and how is it working for you.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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John:
And THAT is exactly what I have been saying from the start of this discussion. It's knowing when NOT to use it. And since everyone's reasoning skills might be different, my concern/arguments continue to fall on the deaf ears of the ones pushing its use.
And if we are going to split hairs on the terms used here, then from now on, I want to say "fire suppression water delivery appliance" in place of nozzle.
Not everyone has a BS degree.
Jeez.
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Permalink Reply by John Kriska on
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I think we can spend all day discussing whether to use the term "vented" or "exhaust", but I believe there is something more important that we need to look at and that is a good building size-up. I teach a size-up method similiar to Layman's Size-Up Method but I place Ventilation tactics as the primary consideration during the size-up. When I speak of ventilation (exhaust) I mean performing the necessary functions that will remove the heat, smoke and gases from the affected spaces and replace those products of combustion with fresh air. This all starts with the first in Officer doing an effective exterior building size-up (360 degree walk-around if possible). These Ventilation/Exhaust tactics can be natural ventilation techniques, either horizontal or vertical whcih ever is appropriate for the situation and then supplemeted with PPA if the Officer so desires. Why do I place ventilation/exhaust as a priority? Because good effective ventilation/exhaust practices can have a positive affect on the safety of trapped victims and our Firefighters. I advocate: Size-Up..Ventilate/Exhaust..Then Enter.
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Permalink Reply by Kriss Garcia on
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You are right John, The other issue we have not discussed regarding this or any other well developed fire is that any void that is not fire stopped such as an attic, basement or balloon space needs to be accessed as soon as possible to determine when fire has advanced beyond the point of interior control.
Thanks Kriss
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Tom,
I have done dozens of evaluations regarding structural issues regarding fire. I am also a contracting structural engineer,,,,,this being said that test was conducted by myself during a fire school.
You seem to have such a n interest and great perspective on the fire service that you should take a look at our Train the Trainer on PPA that is going to be in March. Information is available on our website.
positivepressureattack.com
Thanks
Kriss
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You are right again,,,,,,
with ventilation everything is better,,,,,safer,,,,more effective,,,,,,more efficient,,,,,etc. There is not a point of fire attack that adequate ventilation does not improve.
The next most important element is to aggressively overhaul,,,,,knocking down the fire is only the first thing not the last thing that needs to happen,,,,the next thing should be aggressive overhaul,,,,,,,,,Open early--Open often.
Thanks
John
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Permalink Reply by matthew seals on
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My fire department uses them, and i think they are very helpful if you use it right. i've seen too many FF start busting out windows and doors and then putting the fan in front of the door thinking it will help. wrong. you have to make sure there is only TWO openings. 1) where the fan is placed 2) where the ventilation opening is made. and no other openings. this WILL help at a structure fire. the fan must also be place where it covers the whole opening (such as a door)..same as hydraulic ventilation. but this is only my opinion on this site due to future unwanted arguements
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Mathew you are right,,,in my opinion,,,I do however like to have the blower not quite cover the entire door so that I have some space at the top,,,this gives me the indication as to whether or not I have enough downstream negative area for the products of combustion to exhaust,,,,If you have smoke and/or flames come over the top of the blower you don't have enough exhaust,,,if not,,,and the environment is clearing away from the initial crews,,,,you have to make more exhausts,,,
Great comments
Kriss
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If someone else from your department is interested we would love to have someone from your area to help out.
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This will be my last post in this discussion thread.
I have stated that I believe in my opinion that there are many departments out there who are not ready for this aggressive offensive tactic. For that, a PPA “expert” refused to discuss it further with me. I was accused of having a “superficial” life and that may very well be. I haven’t examined it that closely.
But I can tell you that I have scruples and I am not going to engage in a discussion thread with someone who comes onto a website and shamelessly sells their wares; in this case, a controversial tactic. It would also appear that Tempest Technologies is a benefactor of his constant rantings to visit his website, where you quickly discover that the world of PPA/PPV according to him will cost you at least $600. Yet; I’m the one who’s superficial.
I don’t know about the rest of the world, but when someone has product sponsors and charges several hundred dollars to talk to them, I am cynical enough to know what the motivation is.
So, when I state that many volunteer departments aren’t ready for such a radical departure from basic tactics, I am accused of paying my mortgage with firefighting. If I am, I am a very well paid VOLUNTEER!
But, I wonder: what is selling PPA paying for? Mortgage? 401K? Early retirement?
Question for the group: if PPA is such a widely accepted and widely adopted tactic, then why aren’t the fire colleges in all 50 states including it in their curriculums? The answer is simple: liability if something goes wrong. Our state fire service institute has no desire at this time to even discuss it. Good enough for me.
Then, the discussion moved to semantics. Exhaust? Vent? Please!
The term “self-vent” has been around for a hundred years. PPV blowers have been around since the late 70s/early 80s. John Salka in his book “First In Last Out” would be disappointed to learn that he doesn’t know the difference between “exhaust” and “vent”. Salka states in his book and I quote: At one time, we taught firefighters never to open up the hose on smoke. This was because years ago, all the buildings in New York City had single pane windows. When a fire reached a certain point, the windows would burst from the mounting pressure of the heat inside the room and naturally start venting that heat outside. End of quote; I added bold for emphasis.
Everything that I have studied on this phraseology tells me that buildings are vented; either naturally or through an intervention. “Exhaust” is a component of the process of ventilation. It refers to an opening or at least it does in Mittendorf’s book. With PPV, Mittendorf identifies: The introduction of mechanical air at the doorway (inlet), positively pressurizing the interior and forcing products of combustion out through an “exhaust” opening (s).
“Exhaust” is also characterized as the products as they vent. I mean; “exhaust” is what comes from your car, right?
In light of everything that I have been reading of late about Rapid Fire Progression (RFP), Flashover and LODDs due to rapidly changing conditions, I’m not buying into PPA just yet. I have just finished reading the reports on Firefighter Kyle Robert Wilson, listened to the recordings of his last radio transmissions and the desperation of all involved and it saddens me. And strong wind was a contributing factor at an incident that went south just 14 minutes into the call! And what are we talking about here? Wind machines!
When you look at the difference of opinion just in this thread and extrapolate it out, it’s no wonder that only a small percentage nation-wide is using it as an offensive tactic.
So, no; I won’t be contacting Garcia even when the time feels right to re-visit it. I will discuss it with my peers; perhaps Kriska or Grimwood.
Everyone; please stay safe out there.
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Thanks Tom, This is a quick down and dirty introduction.
Kriss
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I would invite you to take a look at some of the information on our website. We started investigating this method of attack in order to prove that it did not work. Now a decade later I can say without a doubt that when used by well trained firefighters, PPA is by far the safest most effective means of attacking a fire. The safety does not just apply to the fire it also applies to the recent study identifying the environment we are in during a fire and how that can lead to up to a 30% increase in various types of cancers to firefighters exposing themselves to heavy products of combustion. This exposure is fo rthe most part eliminated with PPA. Property conservation is also greatly enhanced. I guess all I'm saying is that if our job is to safely save life and property and this method address both, you should atleast set out to prove us wrong.
Thanks for your reply..I agree anytime you open up a void as during overhaul you need to be prepared for increased fire behavior.
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I would add that you need to have ample exhaust. smoke should move away from the blower and not back towards it,,otherwise you need more exhaust
Thanks for the positive note,,,
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