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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on October 16, 2007 at 10:11pm

I have learned something from this discussion - I've never heard of hot tapping a hydrant until reading it here. Thanks!

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Permalink Reply by BaldFF on October 16, 2007 at 11:47pm

My answer to the original either/or question would have to be experience, but of course a combination of both is ideal. I think we all take exception to the "cert guys" who hide behind their paper and have not executed on the emergency scene. But we all know the guys who have 30 years of "experience" (i.e. bad habits) and haven't actually learned anything in the past 25.

The argument that says "we haven't learned anything from past incidents on fireground" I would think applies to those who haven't actually had the experience. It's one thing to try to learn from others' experiences, but you really learn when it's your own experience. If you tell me to never try to Hot Tap a hydrant because your experience was bad I might remember that. But if I try to Hot Tap a hydrant and get nailed with the cap then THAT is experience (and learning the hard way) that I'll really learn from.

If we're fighting fires every day (experience) then our education is focused on refinement and advanced techniques. For those of us who do not fight fires every day we need to rely on constant training and practice (education) just to maintain basic competency. And when we learn a new skill (education) don't we want to apply it (experience)?

Firefighting is one of those things where you find out pretty fast who can and cannot put their education to practical use. We've all seen them. They've got NFPA standards committed to memory and can tell you every branch in a NIMS Type 5 command structure, but they can't run a call, a crew, or a scene. But I believe experience can improve them if they'll let it.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Adams on October 27, 2007 at 11:00pm

I'de like to here what you find out as well! I've been in the fire service for 30 something years, 25 as a career firefighter. I have a Bachlors degree in fire service management, an Associates in fire protection technology, Am NFPA 1&2 certified, New York State certified, Haz-Mat Technician, Rrescue Technician, been an EMT for 30 years and have enough other credentials and certifications to fill a book. About two years ago the company that I had worked for for 25 years decided that they no longer needed as many firefighters as they use to. So they began to lay off they senior most firefighters, because we were starting to earn more in our retirement. This is a large well known photographic company in upstate New York, and we had no union to protect us. Now comes the best part, after being screwed out of our final 5-10 years of greatest retirement enuity building by this company, we are looked at by the local County and Municipal Fire Departments as being too old (I'm only 49), "they won't be able to get thier times worth out of us"- so they say! So tell me where did the experience of over 30 years get me or the State, Federal and College education get me! The only work I've been able to find as a firefighter is a part time Pump Operator/EMT with one of the County Fire Departments where I live. And thats only one night a week, while the rest of the time I have to work in an auto parts factory for a little better than $10.00 an hour. So when you find out which carries the most weight let me know, because in Monroe County in Upstate New York neither means a thing. Experience and Education mean nothing, not to greedy corporations or to departments that are more interested in getting their time out of their personnel. Oh and by the way if you have not figured out who the big company is here is another clue "their logo is a red and yellow K".

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