F.D.N.Y. Fire Behavior Study

High heat output of modern fire is very high. Should we hit the fire with Large Caliber Steams while stretching interior handlines? Than shut the L.C.S.s down and then attack the fire with interior handlines as we always have. What are your experances? What are your views?

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on July 28, 2012 at 9:36pm

Captain Robert Rainey,

I had to move my reply here because there was no room where you originally posted it.

Reply by Captain Robert Rainey 10 hours ago

Don point well taken. One one man handline stretch is possible. But add a long stretch or a complex layout to the path of the stretch and it can be very hard for one man to do. We are required in most fire departments to operate in pairs of firefighters inside the fire area, areas "Imediately dangerous to life and health" In rough terms 2 in 2 out requires teams of firefighters in most cases. I agree we need to consider training and firefighter fitness issues or as you said we have bigger issues than the size of the fire.

Cap,

When we work interior we do operate in teams of at least 2, most often 3 if we have the personnel. My point is if we have a short crew, and we decide to do a transitional attack, one firefighter can stretch, assuming no obstacles, a 200 foot preconnect and operate it ALONE from a relatively safe exterior position. Another firefighter can join that initial hoseline to move it interior OR stretch anotherine for going interior with if that would be faster. We normally have 4or 5 on the first out engine so stretching 2 lines is entirely possible and practical to do simultaneously.

I am 53 years old and I can stretch a 200 foot 2 inch preconnect by myself. I am in okay shape, no olympic athlete by any means, so I figure if I can do it any 20 something should be able to.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on July 29, 2012 at 11:33am

Larry,

How many calls are run are not the most important element for a specific tactic's use.

The most important elements are that the tactic is thought out beforehand by the department in question, that it is trained in advance, and that the tactic is appropriate for the combination of variables found at a specific fire.

I agree with using the 1-3/4 if you need subsequent mobility. Even a 2-inch line is more difficult to move once it is charged. If you can't get the exterior part of a transitional knock with the 185 GPM you can get from a 1-3/4 smoothbore, then hopefully you have the rig in position for a deck pipe as Capt. Rainey discusses.

The 1-3/4 is a good compromise between flow and mobility for departments that are not blessed with lots of manpower on the initial alarm.

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Permalink Reply by Captain Robert Rainey on July 29, 2012 at 6:12pm

Larry is right in what he says. I also would not make it a blanket policy to hit the fire from the outside at every fire. The tactic is only for advanced/heavy fire conditions that have self vented. Any opening we make, even forcing a door can draw fire to that opening. I also feel a stright steam or solid stream is the only attack nozzle seting or design we should use for interior attack, with the expection of using a fog tip or nozzle to do hydraulic venting out a window. Please realize that there is a misconception that the F.D.N.Y. still has the same staffing levels we had a few years ago. Most Engine Companies in the FDNY ride with an officer, a driver (E.C.C.) and 3 firefighters. Truck/Ladder companies Ride with the officer, a driver (L.C.C.) and 4 firefighters. This level can be further reduced by sickness or injuries after the start of the tour of duty. The other problem is avalability of companies. F.D.N.Y. responds to more alarms each year than any other fire department in the world. Avalability can be a major problem in areas such as Midtown Manhatttan and high alarm activity areas in Upper Manhattan, the South Bronx and large areas in Brooklyn, & Queens. Capt. RRR

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Permalink Reply by Captain Robert Rainey on July 29, 2012 at 6:19pm

Russ I have always felt the way you do. But so far the tests by F.D.N.Y. and U.L. seem to indicate that we in fact do not seriously endanger people by "pushing' fire, heat, smoke with hose streams. We can endanger them by improper venting procedures or venting done at the wrong time. The sooner the fire knocked down the more lives are saved. The F.D.N.Y. Engine Company Fire Tactics & Procedures Manual states. "More lives are saved by properly positioned hose line than by any other method" Capt. RRR