One Aspect of the 360

I understand that all buildings, for various reasons, will not get a 360 performed on it during a fire. But, for those that we do get to job around, we need to understand what we are looking for.

I recently spoke with an acting officer and asked him what he was looking for when performing a 360. His answer was "fire." I asked what else? The answer came, "ways in." We need to make sure we are taking advantage of the information being made available to us while we are circling the building.

This post is going to focus on some basement indicators. The pictures shown below are just examples of things you might see when making the round. Keep in mind that at night you need to take a hand light. For example, the wood behind the basement windows below may not be noticeable with shining a light in the windows on the way around.

We must pay attention to what we are looking for when conduction the 360. As you can see, we may be faced with some very challenging situations. Not only do we need to be aware during the initial arrival, but the RIT will need this information as well.

As always, follow you own operational guidelines and train hard.

This and other topics will be discussed during one of my presentations at Fire Rescue International 2011. I am presenting for the Company Officer Development track and hope to see you there.

Jason

http://firefightersenemy.com

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Permalink Reply by Roy Walker on August 31, 2011 at 4:06am

Sorry John it was not my intention to imply that my way was the only way or especially the most correct policy. That is why I love the Nation is to learn and change procedures that need changing.Just because I was taught a method does not mean it is not open to change and reevaluation. I offered one version of RIToperations and intend to research and redevelop them based in part on knowledgeI have read here and I thank you and the others for the opportunities to improve our procedures. I do however not understand the words BS.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on August 31, 2011 at 12:57pm

Roy,

Much of my post was spurred from the discussion with Ben. I agree with a proactive RIT approach, vs the staging by the door approach. The purpose of the RIT team is to assist a downed FF, yet we understand that RIT alone does not save FF's, it starts with the FF self survival. This means every FF should be able to recognize a MAYDAY situation and to call early, rather than try and mitigate the emergency themselves for fear of calling a MAYDAY and getting crap by others later. (of which if any FF gives someone crap about calling a MAYDAY is an idiot and doesn't deserve to be doing the same job).

So along with self survival comes how to recognize the situation to call a MAYDAY, followed with calling the MAYDAY, and then looking around for an exit, etc. This may mean a ladder bail out, window hang, escape rope, etc, etc, etc. My point here is that FF self survival and recognizing and calling a MAYDAY and integral components of a successful RIT operation.

Now the reasoning I see for a proactive RIT is that it is the job of the RIT to helped that downed FF, so why not expeditite that scene? Putting up ladders may mean that FF can self egress after calling a MAYDAY. Having doors already forced open can mean a quick access for the team or even an open egress for the FF. Keeping an eye on conditions means you have 4 (in our case) sets of eyes on changing conditions, vs say a roaming chief or safety officer. The team may be able to see a potential EMERGENCY situation and alert command to this and get crews out before a MAYDAY can occur.

This can't be said with a RIT team sitting idlely by staged by the main entry.

Another reason I'm against the staging concept and keeping RIT "fresh" by them not doing simple fireground tasks, is that it means another crew is thus responsible. I DO NOT advocate the RIT team taking over such truck duties, but meerly supplementing the duties. This means the RIT and truck can be doing some things together, like throwing ground ladders......ever hear someone say there are too many ladders??

Along with that if there are other accesses that need to be forced and a search or roof vent needs to be done, why not let the RIT team ensure access to ALL parts of the structure if needed? There is no reason to wait around for someone else. If waiting around, to stay "fresh" this means that someone else has to do the job, which in turns means they could wear out faster and then become a MAYDAY situation themselves. For instance you have a truck crew throwing ladders, and forcing entry, and then assigned to search, that crew already exerted itself prior to going in to search, which can heighten fatigue and possibility of a FF going down. So to prevent a MAYDAY, the RIT team can share some truck tasks and can have a couple more ladders thrown or entry forced which means that truck crew going to search is less strained.

The purpose of a RIT is to be ready, so why not ensure the scene is ready for a RIT operation? Why have a crew sit around and wait for something bad, when they may be able to prevent that in the first place? RIT can do several fireground tasks, but they just have to be ready to go if needed and the tasks easily stopped. They can't be in a situation or area requiring them to be on air, but can do many fireground priorities on the scene to make the scene safer, or at least easier to access a downed FF.

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Permalink Reply by Roy Walker on August 31, 2011 at 2:27pm

Well stated and explained John, I found that highly informative and usefull,thanks John it gave thought to some valid points that I hadn't previously considered.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on August 31, 2011 at 10:15pm

"Now the reasoning I see for a proactive RIT is that it is the job of the RIT to helped that downed FF, so why not expeditite that scene? Putting up ladders may mean that FF can self egress after calling a MAYDAY. Having doors already forced open can mean a quick access for the team or even an open egress for the FF. Keeping an eye on conditions means you have 4 (in our case) sets of eyes on changing conditions, vs say a roaming chief or safety officer. The team may be able to see a potential EMERGENCY situation and alert command to this and get crews out before a MAYDAY can occur.

This can't be said with a RIT team sitting idlely by staged by the main entry."

Sure it can. You just have to assigne a non-RIT company do perform those tasks.

"For instance you have a truck crew throwing ladders, and forcing entry, and then assigned to search, that crew already exerted itself prior to going in to search, which can heighten fatigue and possibility of a FF going down."

If that's happening, then someone's priorities are backwards. Search should be the #1 priority if the fire is a survivable one.

If we're talking about a basic, SFD fire incident here, four companies can handle the initial assignments - one for search and rescue, one for fire attack, one for forcible entry and outside vent and one for RIT. Further, the forcible entry and outside vent crew can be split into two teams if they're not entering an IDLH environment, so one team can open up while the other one throws ladders.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on September 1, 2011 at 1:09am

Sure it can. You just have to assigne a non-RIT company do perform those tasks.

Don't know about you, but we don't have the resources nor staffing to have 2 companies sitting by. There is absolutely nothing wrong to have RIT keep an eye on a structure and not sitting out front waiting for something to happen.

If that's happening, then someone's priorities are backwards. Search should be the #1 priority if the fire is a survivable one.

It is called an example. However, since brought up, say that truck company is now assigned search as the priority....just sit back and await another crew to perform the other truck company functions? So let's see, send a crew in to search, yet we have a fire, which means a crew to attack, which means there should be a crew to backup. If my math is correct, that is 3 companies being utilized, so hmmm, who is throwing ladders or forcing doors...well I guess we can have the ambulance crew do all that, so those 2 people can ensure ladders on all sides, and pop all doors.........or we can supplement those tasks with the RIT team. I choose to supplement.

Once again the role of RIT is to ensure a downed FF can get out, so why not best ensure the scene is ready? Why not give the best opportunities for getting a FF out? Sorry Ben, I don't buy this aspect of a RIT standing around, especially when some basic fireground tasks can be supplemented with a RIT crew.

What surprises me is the resistance to even grasp such a concept. It only makes sense to ensure the best possibility for FF survival and that means expediting on scene priorities.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on September 1, 2011 at 1:31am

The truck company can be split into two teams, one of which can search and the other can throw ladders and open up without diluting the RIT assignment.

You keep commenting as if a staged RIT team can't watch the structure, and that's simply not the case. You're creating a false dilemma with that one.

The most important reason for having RIT is to actively rescue a downed, lost, or injured firefighter...INSIDE the structure. Diluting that assignment with regular old truck work on the exterior is still diluting - not supplementing - no matter how you slice it.

You shouldn't be surprised that someone is resistant to under-responding and insisting that RIT should carry out tasks that virtualy guarantee that they will be out of position, away from the cache, with some of their energy wasted if they actually have to respond to a real MAYDAY.

If you have four companies on the first alarm, you can get fire attack and backup from two three-firefighter companies, the interior search from half of a four-firefighter truck company, and the exterior stuff from the other half of a two-firefighter truck company while another four-firefighter company staffs the RIT assignment. One additional company rotated into the mix gives you the ability to rotate companies through the RIT assignment and rehab.

If your department doesn't have the resources to staff those assignments without dippiung into the EMS crew, it's pretty easy to use mutual aid/automatic aid to make this happen - if you're not isolated on an island with limiteed MA/AA available.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on September 1, 2011 at 9:02am

You keep commenting as if a staged RIT team can't watch the structure, and that's simply not the case. You're creating a false dilemma with that one.

No false dilema, just simple mathmatics, when you have more sets of eyes on the structure, from different vantage points, you have a better perspective than that of one side with a wandering chief etc. Simple math, 4 sets of eyes are better than one. Yes, a staged, idle RIT, can still watch a structure, but the vantage point is reduced from a single place. Really it is no different than IC having sector officers.

As mentioned before the successful RIT operation starts with an individual with MAYDAY training, self survival, and recognizing a MAYDAY situation and to call early. Along with self survival is having means of egress readily available, which comes down to simple truck work tasks. You can call it diluting the work using a RIT crew if you want, I really don't care.....I personally don't see how relying on a single crew, even if they split, makes things any better. Take the RIT crew officer out of the mix and you have two or three more ladders set up that much faster. While you have a crew forcing entry the RIT can pop a couple more doors at the same times, thus expediting scene control.

The faster a task is accomplished along with help, the more physically ready a crew is for another assignment, and also enables another task to be done that much faster as well.

No, I see a resistance to change, and that is fine, not every place has trained with, practiced, nor implemented a proactive RIT approach. Virtually guarantee they are out of position? How so? If your RIT team is staged on the "A" side and the MAYDAY is called and the best way in is the "C" side, isn't your team thus virtually out of position?

Some energy wasted? wow, how out of shape are the guys if you have to walk a little distance to a cache? Besides, I mentioned our cache, seriously a single out of shape FF could easily move this. Besides, along with a successful RIT comes listening to the MAYDAY, the FF's assignment and location, or where they think they may be. Doesn't make sense to rush right on in from the main entry point if the FF is on the other side from the main entry and happens to be closer to a window, etc.

Or are you trying to say that despite the conditions or layout, that a RIT should stage at the main entry irregardless and use that point irregardless? I know you are not, but that is a difference with proactive vs reactive responses. The fact is the best access point for a RIT operation may not be the main entry and in some cases (as ours was) that entry can become compromised. RIT should be ready and flexible to relocate. Having several eyes and RIT at the corners and say that MAYDAY is upstairs at the "C" "D" corner and cache is staged by the "A" side door.....it really takes nothing for the other members to relocate with the cache to the window point, while the closest member can start breaking out the glass and sash....or if anything getting a ladder to a FF to self rescue......no where does it say that a successful RIT operation has to be done from the interior.

I understand a resistance to change and I understand the proactive RIT approach is not widespread, it does take some training and practice, but so does any skill to hone. We have done the staged RIT and some structures don't readily allow for corner observations, but the crew can still accomplish simple tasks, thus allowing another company to operate on another side. By doing both ways of operating we have had a chance to explore both and weigh the pros and cons of each, in our case we found the pros of a proactive RIT outweighing the cons.

RIT is about FF survival and is more than just going inside for a downed FF, it is about ensuring the tools, equipment, and egress points are in place for the quickest removal of a FF. A FF self rescue is one of the most successful RIT operations because there is no longer the need to put others at risk and it can be as simple as a ladder to a window, or having a door forced open. Successful RIT operations start with training.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on September 1, 2011 at 8:05pm

John, yes, it is a false dilemma, because you are painting this situation as only having two extreme opposite solutions and that is not the case. As I've already stated, if you need eyes to just watch the structure and especially if RIT is substituting as Division officers, then you need to have officers watching the building so that the "T" in RIT actually does mean "Team". As for your "simple math", if you have four RIT members actually formed into an intact team, do three of them suddenly become blind if they stand with the officer instead of being scattered all over the fireground? I don't think so. There's an error in your math, too. You can have however many sets of eyes all over the fireground, they just don't have to all be RIT eyes. There's also the possibility to have multiple RITs if the fireground is large or complex enough to need RIT ready at multiple entry points.

Once again, you are relying on RIT to do simple, old-fashioned truck work. That does indeed dilute their ability to perform their primary mission - rescue downed, lost, or trapped firefighters INSIDE the structure.

I'm not resistant to change at all - I'm a huge proponent for change. However, change needs to be evaluated for its actual results, not just for what sounds cool or what feels good to a RIT who has a collective short attention span and/or that has sensitive feelings about supposedly getting cut out of some firefighting action.

When you start talking about RIT being staged on Side A, you're putting words in my mouth. I did not say that. RIT can be staged wherever the most likely entry point is - but if they're not together, they are not a "team"...making RIT a misspelled misnomer in that situation.

Apparently you didn't read my response to another poster regarding the "how out of shape is RIT" in response to my comment about wasting energy. That's another false dilemma. The issue is not how in shape or out of shape RIT may be relative to anyone else. I don't care if your RIT is made up entirely of supermen. If they are not kept together with the RIT cache, they will waste both time and energy responding to a MAYDAY inside the structure.

Earlier you commented more than once about your RIT not carrying "saws and jaws" while in the same posts you discussed your idea for RIT roaming the fireground opening up and removing bars. Really? A RIT armed only with basic hand tools is going to be universally removing burglar bars or forcing entry through some of the armored Side C doors on a commercial structure?

Most importantly, if RIT members are operating individually on the exterior and are horizontally ventilating while calling it "opening up" on autopilot, then they're just freelancing. All of those activities should be coordinated by command to ensure that the firefighters adding oxygen to the interior are not ventilating a ventilation-controlled fire. We saw how well that worked in Charleston on June 18, 2007.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on September 2, 2011 at 1:44am

As I've already stated, if you need eyes to just watch the structure and especially if RIT is substituting as Division officers

I never said that RIT is substituting as division officers, just that they are watching the structure at different angles. Big difference than being a division or even safety officer and part of RIT watching conditions. Yep, there can be more eyes on any structure as should be the case for every FF on scene, the difference being a RIT at the corners can also locate and identify access points or situations faster as a group rather than relying on one person's view.

That does indeed dilute their ability to perform their primary mission - rescue downed, lost, or trapped firefighters INSIDE the structure.

Really, so any MAYDAY situation involving a RIT response only happens INSIDE a structure. Really? Care to show some facts on this? Besides, if RIT even puts a ladder to a FF doing a window hang etc, then is that not a RIT operation, is it not a MAYDAY situation? Sorry, I call BS with RIT being for INSIDE only.

And yet, if there is egress opportunities in place because doors were forced faster because of proactive RIT or ladders up quicker because of proactive RIT and a FF self rescues, well then, that means a chance to regroup without endangering more FF's by having to go INSIDE.

However, change needs to be evaluated for its actual results, not just for what sounds cool or what feels good to a RIT who has a collective short attention span and/or that has sensitive feelings about supposedly getting cut out of some firefighting action.

So in your mind the reason for a proactive RIT is because people feel left out of the action? Wow, way to create a strawman to attack. You think we are doing this just because it sounds cool or some other BS reason that you want to make up? Then you are on crack or something because that just isn't the case, matter of fact your whole synopsis here is BS.

I already mentioned how this was something we trained on and we did just stage before and pros and cons were weighed. I guess in your world that just consists of feel good ideas of a short attention span to keep firefighters in some action......yet how far off you really are.

I never put words in your mouth, go back and re-read. You are the one advocating staging by the main entry point. I asked a question and gave an example that if RIT was staged on the "A" side and the best way in for a MAYDAY happened to be on the "C" side, then isn't such a RIT "virtually already out of position?"

If they are not together they aren't a team? Palease. Having members at the corners still maintains eye contact with at least 2 other members. Yet, I understand many places will have someone VES and maintain eye contact with a partner, even though both physically aren't doing VES. That is still maintaining a team. Same aspect here.

I don't care if your RIT is made up entirely of supermen. If they are not kept together with the RIT cache, they will waste both time and energy responding to a MAYDAY inside the structure.

And if your team is already prestaged together, they are going to waste time and energy moving to the opposite side of the structure for a better access if that is where the MAYDAY happens to occur....so really I see such debate as a wash.

And there is lies an issue with internet posting, it comes down to knowing your district. I don't pretend to know Hilton Head and I doubt you know GB. However, we are lucky that there really aren't burgler bars on homes here that need to be removed, so yes most doors can be forced easily with a set of irons. Now in the future this may change and we will change with it, and most likely gives a greater reason for a proactive RIT if a truck company would be tied up with such a task as well.

Commercial buildings, yes, I didn't mention much about commercial buildings, but did say that the monitoring aspect and what the RIT team does does depend on the building. A commercial building would most likely get a staged RIT approach, they can still do some work in the vicinty of the main entry but they aren't being sent all over the outside either.

Most importantly, if RIT members are operating individually on the exterior and are horizontally ventilating while calling it "opening up" on autopilot, then they're just freelancing.

So where are you coming up with this little gem? I sure know I never said anything to this extent so you are either making this up or are confused. I said that if monitoring the structure and a MAYDAY is called and a FF says he is say the "C" "D" corner and the RIT cache is staged near the "A" side that the member by the cache can move that to the area of the FF and other members can meet up. The RIT member closest can start removing the glass and sash to expedite a RIT operation. No where did I say that RIT is going around "opening up" on autopilot....nice stretch of the imagination.

I understand you are set in your ways and don't agree with this approach. We have done RIT as a staged approach and trained, and practiced as proactive and weighed pros and cons to make the determination for us, the proactive appoach is better. We did have a RIT activation from a staged approach that had to be moved because the main entry was compromised. We took lessons learned and looked to improve things. The big difference is we have tried both ways, not just arguing points against one or the other, we happen to find a proactive approach the better option. I know how we operate and you know how you operate, there are some things I would like to change, however, this is not one of them. You don't have to like our approach, but then again, you aren't working here either, are you?

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on September 2, 2011 at 7:23pm

John, your mixing your straw men with your false dilemmas and repeating at least one mischaracterization here...

For starters, Division officers can watch the structure from the corners just as well as RIT without diluting the RIT assignment or splitting up the team.

You accuse me of a straw man while claiming your Side A RIT staging straw man was just an example...yeah, right.

Then you threw in the straw man about RIT being for INSIDE only. I didn't say that...you did. Here's my exact words "The most important reason for having RIT is to actively rescue a downed, lost, or injured firefighter...INSIDE the structure." Note the complete lack of the word "only" in my statement and its presence in yours.

I'm also throwing the B.S. flag on you for your claim that a RIT scattered to the corners of a structure can assemble and get inside as a team just as quickly as a RIT staged near the most likely entrance. Along with that, you keep on insisting that RIT is needed to open up from the exterior. For the umpteenth time, that's just basic truck work and RIT shouldn't be needed to do it. If you're using RIT to do basic truck work, you're under-responding and you're diluting the RIT assignment.

Here's your mischaracterization "I understand you are set in your ways and don't agree with this approach." That flatly is B.S. I'm not set in my ways at all. My choices about how to operate RIT come from 36 years of firefighting experience including high-volume urban areas as well as suburban and rural. My choices are not only based on where I happen to work now, they are based on an analysis of operating RIT at a variety of different structural types and fire conditions as well as a lot of training on what works and what doesn't work in some pretty realistic training conditions.

And if a scattered RIT team has to open up an exterior access point AFTER a MAYDAY is called, then I submit that having another company assigned to open up the exterior so that it's done BEFORE the MAYDAY is called is also better than having RIT watch from the corners and then having one of them run to where he thinks the MAYDAY is and opening up after the MAYDAY is called. There's also that little problem of post-MAYDAY opening up potentially changing a ventilation-contolled fire into a large, rapidly spreading fuel-controlled fire and making the interior conditions worse. Once again, I point you to June 18, 2007 in Charleston, SC for how that can occur.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on September 3, 2011 at 12:16am

Ben,

I understand you get a kick out of arguing and much of the time just for the sake of arguing. Personally, I could give a crap less about what you think about the fact, I agree with a proactive RIT approach and see the benefits of it. We have done both and weighed the pros and cons and the proactive RIT is found to be more beneficial.

So as I ended my last reply, you don't have to like our approach, but then again, you aren't working here either, are you?

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on September 3, 2011 at 7:15am

John Crabbe,

I understand that you have posted several mischaracterizations here. That is another one.

The difference is that I'm posting based on explanations of problems with scattering the RIT "team" all over the fireground and why the team needs to stay intact to actually be a team without posting mischaracterizations about you or why you supposedly think the way you do.

You did not do the same.

The bottom line is that if you send enough resources to get the outside truck work done, you don't need to dilute the RIT assignment to do that same work.