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How far and how much can you get out of a volunteer?
I attended a class to be certified as Instructor I last week. They were complaining that enrollment was way down in the state classes. They ask what we thought they were were thinking the economy. I know what is going on and tried to make them understand.
Here in Indiana they are putting more and more to get though and pass the states classes. They always say not everybody is cut out to be a firefighter. I agree with that statement but I see more and more volunteers just getting mandatory and not going farther. If your career it may add pay or advance your career. But where is the motive for a volunteer?
I took a drivers op class it was free. My chief ask me why do I want to go though all that when I can drive and pump the trucks. I hear this all the time and not just from my dept. I have more certs than all but one officer on my dept and I am one away from him. I am still a just a firefighter so why should I try there is no advancement in it for me and don't think there will be for a long time. I don't care if I am an officer I am self motivated and gun ho, But most are not.
I see what the state wants but when most of the area is covered by vollies how much can they get. I believe there has to be a happy medium. Or training will stop at the bare minimum. I think thats the opposite of what they want. I believe they are wanting better trained fire depts not less trained.
I don't know if this post shows what I am tring to say correctly. Its hard to explain what I am tring to say. I am not really against the new stuff but how far can they go before it blows up in there face and hurts more than it helps.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Dobson on
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Hang on Jack/DT, Joseph is qoating what I said in the post before not insulting anyone.
Please read my post before his and remove your post or I will close this whole post myself. I will not let this turn nasty. Thank you for understanding
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I want to make sure what I teach is 100% correct. I also want to make sure what I am teaching is clear and understood. So I am sure I will catch things I missed when I took it. I also plan on bringing in experts and someone that is better trained than I am every chance I can so we all can learn together.
I am new to the instructor world I would like to slow down and go though things compleatly insted of seeing how fast we can get this over with. Mainly with are new guys I want to give them a good broad base to build from. Along with the state stuff I want them to fully understand our own equipment. That has been neglected in the past. I tell them anytime they don't understand please please tell me. I don't care if it take 20 times we will get it.
They told us instructors get burnt out fast. So I am going to keep a look out for this.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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John, If you look at what Jack is talking about, it does appear as though Joseph is calling out his remarks in regards to.... "Also, to the person who says, "Everyone doesn't need to take the class, I'll comeback and teach you what I've learned", well that person is crazy".....I read into that, as Jack probably does, that saying everyone doesn't need the class is "crazy".
Sorry I disagree. Budgets are tight, even in career depts. Then you have depts with 50, 100, 150, 200, 500 to over a thousand members. At say a cost of even very low end of $50/member, that is a drastically huge cost for a large dept. Instead it is much more cost effective and much more realistic to send a member or two to receive the training and bring it back. There is absolutely nothing crazy about that.
Yes, first hand training is preferred, but then again not every training program meets the challenges your dept may face. A dept rep can, or should be able to, take the info given and apply it to the challenges your dept faces. You don't need every member of the dept to go through the class.
Now, some classes I'm talking about are some very good to know type of classes and not cert classes. However, cert classes can also apply to a "train the trainer" program. Take Driver/Operator for example. Why send every member needing the state course to a state class.....creating OT, incurring budget costs, etc to give duty personnel time off to take the class? Whereas having a dept trained trainer teach for the dept cuts down on many logistical nightmares and cost. Also things can be streamlined....if you don't have rear mounted pumps, there isn't a reason to talk about them....if you don't draft, you don't have to spend forever talking about that etc.
I believe that is the point as to what Jack is making. Seriously, one needs to look at the big picture and realize dept sizes do vary and that it is very effective and very efficient to have a member or two receive said training and bring it back. To say that such a idea is "crazy" is not looking at the big picture and two irresponsible.
This is your thread....delete and shut down as you will, but I agree with Jack to that point. He took offense to being called "crazy"...perhaps Joseph can better explain things then instead of making such a blanket statement, because in reality, such a concept of not everyone needs to go to the class is really NOT crazy at all, but can be seen as prudent.
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Well put Greg. That attitude of "We are only volunteer" makes me sick to my stomache every time I hear it. Fire is an equal opportunity killer brothers....it doesnt look to see if you are career or volunteer, it kills everyone. Every volunteer in my area gets insulted when they are not compared in the same way to the paid guys/gals in my area, yet when it comes time to attend trianing..."I have a FT job and family, wah, I cant make it to these classes, wah" I have a family too, at one point I worked 2 jobs and went to trainings as well. There is NO excuse people...you want to play like the big boys you have to TRAIN like the big boys. You cant send in a newbie to a structure fire based on the fact his daddy is chief and they are fresh out of the explorer program...They need to use the explorers as a Foundation and build on that with training and lectures and time in fires and drills with senior firefighters and officers. Thats what counts and nothing more.
I have seen one guy who was captain and lacking one officer class to become assistant chief ask his daddy who was chief, to drop the SOP requiring the additional class so he can become chief...They DID IT too, they voted and dropped the SOP and that guy became assistant chief the very next election. It makes me sick and frustrated and ashamed to be a member of the volunteer fire service any more. Why cant any of these guys get the point either? They think its some social club or something, and it needs to change.
AGGGGGGGHHHH!!!! Now im angry!!! lol Sorry guys for the rant.
(end of rant)
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John, The training I was told I could not go to was FREE. No cost to anyone as a matter of fact it was placed over the the whole countys radio system. The chief did not even know that we were told that we could not go. It was for a gas meter that EMA bought and furnished to each dept. Now that same meter is out of service and laying in the corner of the office because no one knows how to service it and the one that was going to teach every one has not touch it.
My guess is a dept with 50 or 100 members is going to have a good training plan in place and monthly or weekly training. Also that size dept is most likely going to have some paid staff.
Now, some classes I'm talking about are some very good to know type of classes and not cert classes. However, cert classes can also apply to a "train the trainer" program. Take Driver/Operator for example. Why send every member needing the state course to a state class.....creating OT, incurring budget costs, etc to give duty personnel time off to take the class? Whereas having a dept trained trainer teach for the dept cuts down on many logistical nightmares and cost. Also things can be streamlined....
In Indiana you can not streamline any state cert class. You must remember that just because one area you can do something in another you may not.
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John, the whole point there is that having a member or two receive training and bring it back is not a "crazy" notion as it was implied by Joseph. Despite the fact one said class was free, doesn't mean it is still logistically possible for all members of a dept to go to said training.
So really, every member doesn't have to attend every class out there as Jack was referring about, it also is not "crazy" or out of line to have other members bring back such training. In fact it is a good way to provide such training to all members, especially when someone has to miss a drill or is off etc, the training is there to be provided again....vs a time limit with classes.
In Indiana you can not streamline any state cert class. You must remember that just because one area you can do something in another you may not.
I'm not saying that things can be skipped and so forth, just that focus can be streamlined. In a state class here, you sit through drafting, different pumps, etc. There is much info included because some dept somewhere may have such equipment, etc. Whereas if the dept is doing the training instead of spending all day on talking about drafting, the time can be better utilized to focus on what the dept does use. It is then the student's responsibility to read up on drafting or different pumps etc for the test. Another thing would be in calculating pump pressure, with a single dept, you don't need to spend time teaching the finger method if pump charts are the preferred method etc. Do you get what I'm saying here?
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Permalink Reply by Danny Lambert on
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I wasn't going to respond to this,but as I read more comments I flet I should. First I am on a 100% Vol Dept. located in rual southwest Va. How far and how much you can get out of a volunteer. Well that depends on the person,whether they are just looking for the name fireman or really want to help someone. If they want to really to help someone and better themselves they will get all the training they can. Our department is made up of ex coal miners,ex police,ex service members and just personnel with out any prior experince of any kind. But our training for the fire service and medical part of it is taken serious. We attend ever class that is offered even if we have to travel 100 or even 500 miles. We have personnel that are EMT's,Medics, Extraction Tech's, and all the way up to Fire Instructors. So you see we can handle just about anything we are call upon to do. When you have people like that,who want to better themselves and help the community training is no problem. I would trust any one of them with my life. Just to throw this in we only have 30 active people on our dept. and their ages range from 21 to 62. So the anwser to your question. How much can you get out of a volunteer? In our case ALL HE'S GOT AND THEN SOME IF HE IS REALLY WANTING TO BETTER HIMSELF AND HIS COMMUNITY. GOD BLESS OUR FIREFIGHTERS AMD MEDICAL PERSONNEL. THEY ARE TRULY SPECIAL PEOPLE.
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Permalink Reply by Greg Jeppson on
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When you Teach, Teach to your students not above them. Study your material and dont act like you have done it all and know everything. When I teach I learn something new every time and sometimes it is better than the technique I am teaching. I acknowledge the student and let them know I like this and if I can use it.
Teaching techniques are different for each Instructor. Find your way of doing things and stick with it. Your first few classes will be rough. Just suck it up and make appropriate changes.
Good luck and dont be too hard on yourself!
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Permalink Reply by Joe Workman on
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I have the same problem here. When I first got into the fire service( little more than a year ago ) I did everything I could to learn as much as possible so wouldn't be a bigger hinderance than help on a call. I started classes for FF2 certification within two months of being on the dept. Sad to say I was the only one from that department that went but I wanted the training. Now I am on a small town volunteer department and we had our training/practice night recently and when I asked what we were gonna go over I was told that it's too hard to do much in the winter time. So I told the officer that I could come up with some ideas for training if he wanted or I could give him my book from the academy if he wanted to look through it for ideas and his response was that we're just a small town department ain't nothin fancy or big time like the department you were on. His response kinda pissed me off because I always thought that any type of training is GOOD training. I just hope that some day i can get some of the guys to listen and maybe go over some of the things I was taught at the academy since it follows the guidelines of our STATE FIRE MARSHALL for certification.
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My suggestion is to look on the web for training ideas. They even produce a book with training for volunteers in it that you can give to this Officer or better yet give me his address and I will mail one to him. I am sorry for Poor officers or better yet LAZY. If I heard that comment I would have relieved him/her on the spot. Keep your head up, keep getting training and grab some of the younger ones and do your own training. If they say anything, you were mentoring them! If I can help you, email me I will do what i can!
Good Luck!
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Permalink Reply by Bekks on
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Seriously? Sounds like "Mr Drive-by" needs to show up for meetings if they want to be included... and the Chief should have the stones to set him straight.
Training is never a 'bad idea' (but I think I'm 'preaching to the choir' with this point based on most of the people on this site).
I guess we are spoiled, our Chief IS our Training Officer so it's a priority.
Our one or two that don't come out are too embarrassed to open their yaps and they don't get perks, points, or bonuses, and are subjected to peer-pressure style jeers (in an attempt to motivate them to be more involved) when they do grace us with their presence. So, concequently, if they were to complain about anything, it would fall on deaf ears.
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Permalink Reply by Collin Bell on
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I believe it is the person's attitude. I am a volunteer and I come to every training we have and go to different other types of trainings. I just got done taking the ICS 300 class and will be taking the ICS 400 class (even though I am not an officer and don't need them). I still took these classes to learn and better myself. The day you stop learning is the day to get out of service.
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