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Do You Believe It's Ethical to Mandate Volunteer Work?
I've been thinking about this for awhile. I LOVE the volunteer service, as I love serving my community and helping people in need.
My department is a combination department in a couple of different ways. We have EMS integrated into our department (EMS calls are about 90% of our calls epr year), and we have paid EMS First Responders, however all of the firefighters are volunteer.
At night there is obviously a hinderance of turn-out (this mostly pertains to EMS calls), so my department has mandated that certain members MUST respond overnight from 2200-0500 for any EMS call that comes out. We call these "Squad Nights". Please accept my apology if this is common knowledge already.
Generally a person assigned to these nights have been in the department under 5 years. There are three slots per night, every night, and they are all filled (Driver, EMT, Aids Person).
I can understand mandating a certain amount of calls per year, and a certain amount of trainings, but mandating a certain time-frame in which certain members MUST respond?
Take into account a lot of people work the normal hours of about 9am-5pm, so it's understandable as to why people don't respond. And don't get me wrong, I've done a lot for overnights. When I wasn't working full-time and worked part-time at night I would do many, many overnight calls.
There's an obvious hierarchy of responsiblities:
1.) Family and Friends
2.) Work
3.) Volunteering
My question to you, the Firehouse community, is: Do you believe it's ethical to mandate VOLUNTEER work?
My department is a combination department in a couple of different ways. We have EMS integrated into our department (EMS calls are about 90% of our calls epr year), and we have paid EMS First Responders, however all of the firefighters are volunteer.
At night there is obviously a hinderance of turn-out (this mostly pertains to EMS calls), so my department has mandated that certain members MUST respond overnight from 2200-0500 for any EMS call that comes out. We call these "Squad Nights". Please accept my apology if this is common knowledge already.
Generally a person assigned to these nights have been in the department under 5 years. There are three slots per night, every night, and they are all filled (Driver, EMT, Aids Person).
I can understand mandating a certain amount of calls per year, and a certain amount of trainings, but mandating a certain time-frame in which certain members MUST respond?
Take into account a lot of people work the normal hours of about 9am-5pm, so it's understandable as to why people don't respond. And don't get me wrong, I've done a lot for overnights. When I wasn't working full-time and worked part-time at night I would do many, many overnight calls.
There's an obvious hierarchy of responsiblities:
1.) Family and Friends
2.) Work
3.) Volunteering
My question to you, the Firehouse community, is: Do you believe it's ethical to mandate VOLUNTEER work?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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First let me just say that mandatory volunteering is not really volunteering.
Second, what does the "Aids Person" on the crew do? Are thet there to handle HIV calls?
Stay safe!
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Permalink Reply by Franklin Rosier on
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Well my department is a volunteer/paid on call and we don't mandate a certin amount of calls all that we ask is that the members try to make as many as they can. We also have two nights that we have two people on call to respond and these two are not paid until there is a call, but they are working on paying two EMT/Firefighter to man the station on friday and saturday nights. Now training is a different story we expect our members to attend 50% of the trainings a year and now that the state of Ohio requires all firefighters to have 18 hours of con-ed they need to attend.
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Permalink Reply by Karr Quintero on
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i was told that when i join that its not just me but my family that joins, missed b-days, games, events that will upset people some of the times, and you'll be tired if your dedicated. also that there is a list a mile long of people that will fill my spot, so go home and disscuss and think it over with your family...
We said "I'm in!!"
just the other day a few citys over, we lost four kids and two adults in the middle of the night
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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This sounds a bit like our duty crew system we used to run at my old Unit.
With ours, you're rostered on from 1800-0600. In that time frame if a call comes in, you respond. If you're not available, you must find coverage.
If you don't respond or can't get coverage, it's not a huge issue as the crew consists of 6 members and (the big) difference to your situation, is that we're not talking about EMS.
Our system was initially introduced to allow all members an equal chance of getting on a truck as well as ensuring we always had a minimum crew available for all calls.
What I don't understand is why your system is only for membewrs with less than 5 years experience????
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Permalink Reply by Patricia Kleier on
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Hi Bryan, I'd like to hear more about how your dept. manages to get along, volunteer and paid staff. It is refreshing to hear your respect for the volunteers. Our paid firefighters/ems work M-F 8:00-6:00. Volunteers cover nights, weekends and holidays. We have mandated shifts for EMS volunteers and assigned days for fire crews. Any unfilled shifts are covered by the paid staff. For full time employees that sometimes means overtime pay. Our paid staff is paid a small amount for any runs they make when they are not on shift. The officers consist of paid staff and volunteers. Yet there seems to be constant conflict within the department.
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Permalink Reply by Jim McKillop on
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I agree with John on this one. You volunteer to join but then the work is mandatory and is EQUAL. We have the same problem in my Dept. The young guys need to be here to keep up their certs, they show up for drill night and Corporation night but most have less than 10% call response. The same guys are at most every call the White Helmets and the Red Helmets and then a few FF Black Helmets. But if we get a call at 2 Am for a working structure fire and we put out multiple tones they all show up. We call this cherry picking, alarm calls are no fun why show up! The key for mandatory shifts and minimum call response it has to be equal across the board from the Chief to the probie who just signed up. And yes there are different opinions in my Dept on this issue even among the officers, but that is to be expected. To the ones who say hey I was someplace else before I came here and I can go back... There are 4 doors out of here pick one.
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Permalink Reply by John L. VanAuken on
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As I have said in many posts, our Dept is a Paid/on call 24/7 Dept with no EMS. We run on calls if it is 3 in the afternoon or 3 in the mornen. Just the other day I worked my full time job that is Ranching now that I left driving truck, and is from sun up to sun down. At 2:30 in the mornen had a hay/barn fire, was on it till noon and still worked the rest of the day. We do have calls that we dont have the man power, do to peoples work times, thats where mutual aid comes in. Our Dept dose not mandate making all calls but if its 3 am and you are home make the call, mostly out of respect for others on your Dept. Unless I have drank or took meds that hamper myself driven, I make all the calls, to the best of my ability. Our Dept in the near future will be a fulltime Dept when that time comes will be shift work, but till then if I am pysicaly able to make a call will make it. None of this well let someone else cover it, for you never know if that one extra person could have made a difference of life or death.
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Permalink Reply by Michael D Painter on
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You are thinking like a fire fighter and that is a different question.
The IRS says, in any job, that if it is mandated, it is not a volunteer position. If anyone complains your department will be liable for at least minimum wage for everybody that is told they must be someplace at a particular time. It will be retroactive and there will be fines.
There is a huge body of law that supports this and it is independent of what the IRS is trying to do in Oregon.
(http://tinyurl.com/24dzhe2 is an article on the subject I have the press release in PDF form if anybody wants it.) If they win,departments all over the country will be in trouble. We have stopped paying stipends until this is cleared up and only pay mileage.
As a new young and eager volunteer I probably would not mind being told I had to respond during a certain period. But if only the new guys show up I'd begin to wonder about the dedication of the other volunteers.
Life comes before property and if these guys only want to squirt water, I would question their reasons for being there. (But I was old and primarily interested in the medical side when I joined.)
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Permalink Reply by CHRIS PUYLARA on
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Thank you Mr. Painter....I knew that the correct answer was here and you gave it...TCSS...CHRIS
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Permalink Reply by Jim Vieira on
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In January of 2001, I was fortunate to be hired as my Departemnts Training and Safety Officer, prior to that I was volunteering for 25 yrs as a fire fighter and EMT and still do today after hours (since I recieve no OT, but that doesnt stop me for getting out). Before being hired, I looked at the Fire Department as my " full time job that I didnt get paid for" because the citizens depended on us, and paid for it with their hard earned tax dollars. Before I start rambling on, YES this should be mandatory, and YES everyone including Officers should be required to do "Squad Nights", as far as your Officers go, they should be leading by example, and not just doing the 3 D's, Deciding, Designating and Disappearing. If thats what you have now, then maybe its time to replace these so-called leaders. At my ripe old age of 53, with 35 yrs of service to my community, I still get down and roll hose with everyone else.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
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I think I'll by-pass your city at night. It seems to me that if I needed pre-hospital care, I'm going to get relatively inexperienced responders who would rather be someplace else. Not a recipe for a good outcome.
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