Tradition? Honor? This is for the "new" guys!

My name is Kevin O'Brien and will not hide behind anything or anyone about being a Firefighter!

Where has it gone? Our spirit, tradition and honor! Too many young kids on the job forget what is important. Is it beacuse our lives are too busy? Perhaps!

I worked in the FDNY from 1981 and retired 2002. I have seen so many things. It made me strong in many ways and also made me weak. I learned from the past by paying attention to the "senior" members and so should you! Our history is your guidline to your future. Pay attention!

The days leading up to 9-11-2001 taught me many things. Being a Firefighter is not a job, it's a vocation, a calling if you don't mind. It is a LIFE. We marry , have chrildren but being a Firefighter is almost as important. BROTHERHOOD!

Being a Firefighter from whatever city or whatever town does NOT stop you from being involved. I say this now because so many have forgotten. Not only 9-11, but the firefighters who die each year..every year! This is our job to peserve the memory and honor of these people. OUR CALLING!

I run a golf outing in Myrtle Beach for the memory of NOT those who have died but the spirit of the Firefighters who stood up and came to our side. They helped our families, went to funerals and stood at our memorials! They were/are the key of our being. Come see how a group of people can stand as one. May 16 - 20, 2010 Look at fdnygolf.com for all the info.

Even if you can not attend. Remember one thing! TRADITION

NEVER FORGET............ANYONE!

KOB

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Permalink Reply by Rob on January 7, 2010 at 3:00pm

John, Jack, Art
I know it's been a few days, but I haven't been near a computer, and I just wanted to finish up my involvement in this discussion with a few final words.
All your examples and points about tradition and brotherhood etc are great and it seems you are very passionate about this topic. You may have taken offense at some of the things I wrote but I want you understand just how equally offensive and insulting some of the posts in this thread have been to me and other newbies.
What do you honestly expect when you and others start writting stuff like, and here's a few examples from the first couple of pages,
we spend all our time playing video games,
we have ear buds stuck in our ears,
all we want is instant gratification,
we don't know what's important,
the IKE label and alligator label (?),
being spoonfed everything....
The stereotyping present here is just unnecessary. Don't expect to write all these things and not get a counter argument please.

My original post was intended to give you something to consider, as I said in the last paragraph. But I feel that instead of giving it some thought you have immediately jumped up to shoot me down. Perhaps if I give you some background on my department and those around mine, you might get a better picture of why I (and thousands of others) feel the way we do.
The average age in my volunteer department of about 50 active, would be between 23-25. Our chief is 36 but all the other officers are under 30. The older guys that still turn up for calls are becoming fewer and fewer because they have no interest in keeping up to date with training requirements of which we have established minimum standards for. A good deal of them left the department after we banned smoking in the building. Another bunch got very upset when we prohibited all alcohol use or possession on the property. Guys that left included some very skilled long time members including past chiefs and officers. It still staggers me that they felt so strongly about their stupid cigarettes and beer that they were able to turn their backs on the place. What does that tell you about brotherhood and tradition? Prior to some of them leaving there were constant fights in attempts to prevent intoxicated members riding the rigs on calls. Someone here made the smart ass comment about wiping the drool from the chins of older guys, which would have been funny if it wasn't true! When I wrote about guys not masking up until the very last minute, I'm talking about 2 guys in their late 40's lying flat on their stomachs in a hallway with dirty black, pushing smoke just 12 inches off the floor, yelling at each other to mask up first and be a pussy!!

Are you still wondering why we have little respect for them and their traditions?

After putting in my 188 hours of Essentials of Firefighting training (which was less than 50hrs ten years ago) I get pissed off when I'm constantly told crap like "forget what you just learned, this is how it's really done!" or "this is what the academy says, but this is what we say". All this tells me is that the current generation of senior firefighters haven't got a clue whats right or wrong, or whats good or bad. It makes me feel like I'm wasting my time sometimes. Participate in two engine ops classes around here and I guarantee one instructor will actually threaten you if he sees you directing water into smoke, whereas the next instructor will educate you on the risks of rollover and flashover and the benefits of putting quick bursts of a fog pattern into the smoke to keep the thermal layers below an ignition temp and help prevent a flashover and maybe save your butt.

I could honestly go on and on about the poor examples of leadership and demonstrations of brotherhood and tradition that exist in this primarily volunteer area, and how it's the young guys who are starting to turn things around to resemble some form of professionalism. Yes, we are taking full advantage of technology to help us but we still learn and practice the basics. I can use an ax to open up a roof just as well as I can with a chainsaw, but the main difference you would see between me and some of the older guys up on that roof is I won't be wearing jeans and a t-shirt pulled up over my mouth.

This is why I feel the way I do. What choice have I had?

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Permalink Reply by Doug on January 7, 2010 at 3:10pm

Rob, you have things mixed up. That isn't brotherhood or tradition, that is the old boys network. It's a shame you have had a bad experience in your department dealing with them, and even a greater shame that you have the two mixed up and confused. My department rid ourselves of those folks years ago, but guess what? The brother and sisterhood is alive and well! You need to reevaluate your stance on this subject. If I may, I'm pretty sure Chief Goodrich went through the same thing in his department.

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 7, 2010 at 3:44pm

Rob:
I have replied to many discussions here. I have done so in almost everyone of them in a tactful and considerate way. I will reply in kind when there is a total lack of even a scintilla of respect, but I will do so within the limits of the terms of service.
I have written and published here almost 160 articles on a range of fire service subject matter. You allude to your attitude stemming from a "local" problem, but you come on a national website and indict everyone that apparently resembles what you're dealing with.
Your examples: we spend all our time playing video games,
we have ear buds stuck in our ears,
all we want is instant gratification,
we don't know what's important,
the IKE label and alligator label (?),
being spoonfed everything....
In all my time here, I have NEVER said any of them.
So please, paint your broad strokes on someone else.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but I will not cop to anything that I am not guilty of.
You may be interested in my next blog.
It's titled: "The Tradition Expedition".
You can read it in on your iPhone while you take your morning mover.
TCSS.
Art

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Permalink Reply by Mike O on January 7, 2010 at 3:58pm

I am getting exactly what your saying... Keep in mind, I am a younger firefighter and I know I don't know everything, but there are some even younger than me that have me fired up over the same issue... I may not know the joy of being able to serve as a profession, but I feel like I've gotten some sense of it from being a pretty active volunteer for around two years now... I've seen these younger ones join because their friends joined or really for that t-shirt status, but I joined because I was always taught to give back to your community... When the senior officers talk, they sometimes listen, but I have always listened, all the way back to my first day as a junior firefighter... I feel exactly as you said, as if I was called by God to do this... I fell in love with the task for a reason... I just wanted to let you know that not everyone in the younger generation is blind to tradition...

Mike

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Permalink Reply by Rob on January 7, 2010 at 4:06pm

Art, you are correct that you personally didn't say those things. I apologize if you felt I was inferring that they came directly from you. I was trying to illustrate the hostility I feel from the entire thread and I included you in my reply since you directed some of your words towards me and felt the need to include the phrase about treating firefighting like some form of social media. I have no idea how you came to that one but now with your little iPhone quip I certainly sense that feeling of superior attitude, and that's what leads to conflict. But I'm guilty of that too sometimes, so I'll overlook that.
I'm certainly interested in your blog, I'll be sure to read through it. Thanks for your contributions to firefighting through this website.

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 7, 2010 at 4:17pm

Doug:
Thank you. You are absolutely right.
Not only did I go through it, but I made it my mission to change it.
And we did. We broke the backs of the "good ole boys" when I was instructed by my chief at the time to send a letter to (7) of them telling them to show up at the next meeting or they could consider themselves "retired". They came to the meeting, we got (7) resignations, we got (7) younger men on, I had the pleasure of helping to train them and we never looked back. Many of them took FF II with me in 1989. I took over as chief in '88. I sent two guys to Instructor I class, got them certified, so we could do quality in-house training. We got our ISO from an 8 to 6. We got a new truck with the district's first ever mid-ship, top mount control. You should have heard the old retirees bitch about the truck being "extravagant". They didn't think that way for long. They started bringing visiting family to the fire station to show it off to them.
I could go on, but you get the picture.
You CAN beat the good ole boys.
TCSS.
Art

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 7, 2010 at 5:15pm

Rob:
I have a Blackberry storm with text, internet and email. My blog is here, on Facebook and Twitter.
I wasn't being superior to anything. I have often accused our social medias of creating certain hurdles in our society. They have opened doors and have closed many. But I use it.
Are you saying you don't use your phone when you're ~~using~~ doing your business?
I guess you could call me a techno-traditionalist? Or retro-conservative?
Or one of the lucky ones, I guess.
Again; I meant no disrespect. Several good points have been made and so far, there have been no personal attacks or name-calling, which has been the "traditional" direction of these types of discussions.
And if I failed to mention it, I will here. My point is that you don't have to make a conscience effort to think about fire service traditions every day. And I understand that many younger firefighters don't want to sit around and bond and listen to the "war" stories. But, please understand, Rob, that there is real concern in the fire service that we are going to lose out on some great opportunity to collect valuable and timeless information. Think about all of the talk of how many WW II vets are left. Before long, there will be none and all's that will be left of them will be the monuments and books; but many more who had a story to tell, but didn't.
We want to capture as much of the information as we can and to preserve it. That's all.
If I can be of service, you know where to find me.
TCSS.
Art

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on January 7, 2010 at 5:55pm

Rob,

I have to agree with Doug and Art here. The issues you mention within your dept is a "good ol' boys" type of network, and not about traditions, honor etc. As it is, every generation is accused of some type of issues where they have it easier or something or something is found "different". That isn't about tradition or honor either.

The issue I initially found with your post was how you alluded to the fact that a younger, newer FF coming out of school is more skilled and capable than an older experienced FF. It was further compounded with the fighter pilot analogy to believe that a new F-16 pilot today is more skilled and capable than a WWII pilot. It isn't about skill or capabilities but new ideas and technologies of which those on the job learn about. While education and new information is great, it doesn't make one any more skilled nor capable, that comes with experience.

As for the rest, I did address my thoughts in my reply later about some of the issues you have. A good ol boys and social FD isn't the issue of traditions and honor that I see being impeded. If drinking in the firehouse and smoking in the firehouse, skipping trainings, laziness, etc are considered "traditions", then I would want no part of that and those traditions need to go. As Art, alludes to though it sometimes takes drastic measures to change things, otherwise it will be a slow process to make the change and it comes with leading by example.

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Permalink Reply by Kevin OBrien on January 7, 2010 at 5:55pm

OK I SEE EVERYONES POINT SO LETS SET THE RULES

WHAT IS BROTHERHOOD?

1. Consider your service to your community as a priority!
2. Act accordingly (if a tax man and a social worker gets in a fight at a bar..it was 2 guys...If it involves us, it's two firefighter!)
3. Never be seen sloppy drunk in uniform
4. Do your share!
5. Respect everyone ALL people!
6. Attend as many memorial as possible
7 Attend ALL funerals (limited to very few real excuses)
8 Help others (esp. our own in need)
9. Be there ( on the fire floor )
10 Respect our histor, job and our GOALS

I know this list will be added too. Please keep in mind this is not just for the "new guys" it is for everyone. Age is wisdom and sometimes a curse. Lets keep focused.

I have seen it with my eyes. New guys absolutly great. Old guys the same and alot in between. My comments are directed to the new learders of this JOB....Keep it up!