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Instructor at the end of his rope
Let me start by saying I need to vent a few things, and apologize to everyone for having to read.. :-) Secondly, I'm sure this is a problem that's not specific to me. If it is, I'll be really surprised. I'd appreciate if y'all weighed in on this, good or bad (I can take a few critics, but please don't be brutal).
Our department is all volunteer, with about 30 members and 5 cadets. We make 150-200 runs a year. I have been in the fire service 6 years, and I currently serve as the department training officer (I'm also first assistant chief). I'm probably the most "certified" person on our department. I am a certified Indiana instructor 2-3. We meet once a month for training, usually lasting a couple hours.
First Issue: Attendance
I put in a lot of time and effort planning training for the department. However, attendance is usually less than stellar. Out of the approximately 30 members we have, we're lucky to get 10 to show up on training night. Of those 10, maybe 2 or 3 actually pay attention to me. I suppose I could do a better job of keeping reigns on the class, but it's hard to do when they A. don't give you respect as an instructor, and B. give you little more as a chief officer. According to SOGs, there is a minimum percentage of trainings you have to make, but this is not enforced (much like what's in the rest of the SOG manual). It's something that sits on a shelf unused 99.5% of the time. I'd love to enforce this more, but I can't find a way to enforce it fairly (for the guys who work swing shifts or are not home in the evenings). Granted, I'm single and have more free time than most. A couple hours a month to sit and pay attention (and not grab-ass) isn't too much to ask, at least in my opinion.
Second Issue: Hands On Skills
Everyone constantly is wanting more hands on training. Hands on, hands on.. that's all I hear. I fully understand the importance of getting out there and learning by doing, but what I can't get across to the students is that sometime you have to do a bit of classroom "setup" before you get to the skills. It tickles me because there has been times they've tried to do the hands on skills with no pre-plan on how things are going to go. It ususally ends up in a cluster@#$% trying to accomplish the skill. Yet they don't see my point of the initial classroom prereq. Also, how many times can a person cut a hole in a ventilation prop before it gets old? Another thing that gripes me about the folks wanting hands on: a good 1/3 of the schedule last year involved some sort of hands on skill, yet even when the skills were slated to be hands on, I still didn't get attendance. I just can't figure them out....
Third Issue: Family Respect
My father is also on this department, and has been on there since I was in Spiderman underwear. Ironically, I actually outrank him (he swore he'd never become an officer), he's the second assistant chief. Lots of the younger members look up to him, and he is a very knowledgable guy. He even has several certifications himself. I am proud to be his son, enjoy working side by side with him on the department, and have learned many things from him.
However...
I don't know if he does it just to give me a hard time, or if he really tries to question my methods when I teach. But he tends to undermine my authority as an instructor in the middle of class. The younger members get a kick out of he and I arguing back and forth. I know I'm right, yet he tries to sidestep textbook logic with "that's now how WE do it HERE", making a big scene, and then I lose the class.
My beef with that is not that my dad is giving me a hard time (though that does bug me), but what kind of example is he setting for the younger members? If I can't get any respect from my own father, how much am I going to get from the rest of the membership? Not to mention, we're both chief officers, and both SHOULD be leading by example.
The guy is half the reason I'm here, how do I tell him nicely to quit challenging me (especially in front of students), when I'm trying to teach the "right" way, instead of the "this is how we do it here" way?
Thoughts, gripes, questions, similarities, differences anyone?
Our department is all volunteer, with about 30 members and 5 cadets. We make 150-200 runs a year. I have been in the fire service 6 years, and I currently serve as the department training officer (I'm also first assistant chief). I'm probably the most "certified" person on our department. I am a certified Indiana instructor 2-3. We meet once a month for training, usually lasting a couple hours.
First Issue: Attendance
I put in a lot of time and effort planning training for the department. However, attendance is usually less than stellar. Out of the approximately 30 members we have, we're lucky to get 10 to show up on training night. Of those 10, maybe 2 or 3 actually pay attention to me. I suppose I could do a better job of keeping reigns on the class, but it's hard to do when they A. don't give you respect as an instructor, and B. give you little more as a chief officer. According to SOGs, there is a minimum percentage of trainings you have to make, but this is not enforced (much like what's in the rest of the SOG manual). It's something that sits on a shelf unused 99.5% of the time. I'd love to enforce this more, but I can't find a way to enforce it fairly (for the guys who work swing shifts or are not home in the evenings). Granted, I'm single and have more free time than most. A couple hours a month to sit and pay attention (and not grab-ass) isn't too much to ask, at least in my opinion.
Second Issue: Hands On Skills
Everyone constantly is wanting more hands on training. Hands on, hands on.. that's all I hear. I fully understand the importance of getting out there and learning by doing, but what I can't get across to the students is that sometime you have to do a bit of classroom "setup" before you get to the skills. It tickles me because there has been times they've tried to do the hands on skills with no pre-plan on how things are going to go. It ususally ends up in a cluster@#$% trying to accomplish the skill. Yet they don't see my point of the initial classroom prereq. Also, how many times can a person cut a hole in a ventilation prop before it gets old? Another thing that gripes me about the folks wanting hands on: a good 1/3 of the schedule last year involved some sort of hands on skill, yet even when the skills were slated to be hands on, I still didn't get attendance. I just can't figure them out....
Third Issue: Family Respect
My father is also on this department, and has been on there since I was in Spiderman underwear. Ironically, I actually outrank him (he swore he'd never become an officer), he's the second assistant chief. Lots of the younger members look up to him, and he is a very knowledgable guy. He even has several certifications himself. I am proud to be his son, enjoy working side by side with him on the department, and have learned many things from him.
However...
I don't know if he does it just to give me a hard time, or if he really tries to question my methods when I teach. But he tends to undermine my authority as an instructor in the middle of class. The younger members get a kick out of he and I arguing back and forth. I know I'm right, yet he tries to sidestep textbook logic with "that's now how WE do it HERE", making a big scene, and then I lose the class.
My beef with that is not that my dad is giving me a hard time (though that does bug me), but what kind of example is he setting for the younger members? If I can't get any respect from my own father, how much am I going to get from the rest of the membership? Not to mention, we're both chief officers, and both SHOULD be leading by example.
The guy is half the reason I'm here, how do I tell him nicely to quit challenging me (especially in front of students), when I'm trying to teach the "right" way, instead of the "this is how we do it here" way?
Thoughts, gripes, questions, similarities, differences anyone?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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You are dealing with a myriad if issues here buddy... thinking in terms of a simple solution, have you tried:
1. identify the training for 2009, no surprises for anyone, being consistent with time and location(s)
2. create 10 teams of 3 to be responsible for (1) of the monthly training topics and "hand-on" drill.
3. come up with an incentive, a treat or something to acknowledge the team that came up with the best training, voted on at the end of the year and celebrated during your holiday / Christmas party.
4. require submital in writing to you ahead of time
5. enable folks to sign up on the list that you created, identifying topics
6. teams need to come up with a lesson plan to identify needs, time frame, purpose, objectives and goals
7. leave room for you to put on training as well
8. lead by example and deal with problems effectively in immediately using a three step process:
a. verbal warning
b. written warning
c. meet with Fire Chief for disciplinary action or expulsion
9. strive for excellence and train as if your life depends on it
10. always remember the pizza after the drills...
TCSS, Mike
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Permalink Reply by Bill Mulligan on
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HEY JAKE GOOD NAME FOR A FIREFIGHTER BY THE WAY. I come from a dept. of simliar size and call volume. I can fully understand your issues. We had a long standing Capt. great guy good firefighter but very busy he did the best he could and we had our share of drills. But when we did 10-12 guys would drill the rest of the guys would sit inside and talk. Now I have been made Capt and I am hoping to turn this around. Now to offer some help I have found that you have to conduct a little class room time to explain the nights events and make sure there are no questions I try to keep this to about a half hour no more than 45 minutes. Because firefighter like children have a short attention span. It sounds like you are trying your best but if you want respect you need to put your 2nd Assits chief in his place I wouldn't do it in the class room but there are a lot of places it can be done. I understand he is your father and that does change things a bit but what would he do if the shoe was on the other foot. I hope you can get it under control before it start to effect your fire ground operations.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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Jake,
You definitely are not alone. It is always difficult to get folks to attend training, particularly IN HOUSE training . Lectures are boring. If you can keep their attention through half the class you are doing well. Sometimes pictures & senarios work pretty well but your method of teaching probably isn't the issue at all.
If it wasn't your father giving you a hard time, it would be someone else. The "TEXTBOOK" logic isn't always the way it works. If it is a better way then strongly suggest that you change SOGs to match but if the old tried and true way works, why change it?
If you do think it is an issue, talk to him about it.
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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on
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1. Yes.. this is something I started last year... in January of 2008, I posted a calendar at the station, and gave a copy to each firefighter with a list of the date, time and topic of training for the whole year. That way they had no excuse to say "I didn't know we were having training or didn't know what the topic was gonna be." I've done the same thing with 2009's schedule.
2-7. That's actually not a bad idea. Only difficulty I see with that is that I doubt their lesson plan, objectives, etc. will measure up to the standards required for us instructors (i am the only certified instructor on our department).
8. I wouldn't have a problem with any other firefighter... but verbal and written warning, even explusion of your father.... yeah
9. Always!!
10. Budget cuts :-)
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Believe me, I know how short attention spans are :-). Truth is I'd love for our training sessions to go for a couple hours. Even with a break, I've found I can't go much longer than an hour on any given night, because I start to lose them after that.
The tough part is that we three chiefs sat down at the beginning of the year and decided together that we needed to be unified (something that hasn't happened with past chief officers). We decided openly and together that it was best for the department for chief officers and company officers alike to all be on the same page. This was decided and agreed upon. Yet in the public (membership) setting, that seems to go out the window, moreso with dad than the chief.
I know I'm just gonna have to sit down with him.. :-) Not looking forward to it though..
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It's not so much that the "tried and true" ways don't work, it's that they can and should be done in a much safer manner. Here's an example of how I remember thing when I first joined: as soon as the truck stops rolling, everybody scatters. The guys on the hoseline are breakin' down the front door before the officer in charge has a chance to do a complete 360 and develop a plan of attack. Accountability was never practiced. Sure we all had helmet tags, but neither one of them ever left your helmet.
My point is that while the old methods do work, there's always a better, faster, safer way to do things. I'm all for continuous improvement, forward thinking, continuing education, and staying about 5 steps ahead of what's currently happening. I just have a hard time getting folks to think in that same direction.
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Permalink Reply by frank barresi on
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Speaking to the training. You have to enforce any training standard to protect the department from liability and you firefighters from getting killed. We had lots of the same issues ten years ago when our "regeim" took over. I was the youngest training officer / Asst. Chief in the county but my experience and approach to training made up for it. We had 100 on the roster (paid, on call) After we instituted minimum training hours and offered training in each station on one week night and one Suday morning per month, we cleared out 30 % of the "deadwood". The 65 members that were left gave much creedence to the "quality not quantity" cliche. Untrained and unmotivated members are not only disrespectful but will eventually get someone hurt or killed. Your Chief would rather delegate than enforce and since "fish stinks from the head" he needs to put the hammer down. Good luck but don't ever change your work ethic or your attitude.
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I don't want to paint dad as being this older rebellious "I hate change" type of firefighter, because he's not. He's actually one of the more forward thinking experience firefighters we have. Usually on the fire scene, he's right on with regards to following a command structure, safety measures, etc. I just seem to have a problem with him in training. Like I said, I don't know if he's just giving me a hard time, or if he really is questioning things. Either way, it looks bad on me and looks bad on us chief officers... I'd just like resolution with that part of things.. :-)
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Permalink Reply by Chief 29 on
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Jake are you sure you don't belong To the same company that I do? As I read your discussion it reminded me of the same dilemmas that I deal with with the exception of the "father" issue.
Remember to stay positive with what you are doing. When I started having regular training nights there were the usual 3 or 4 guys and they were Jr's. Eventually others joined in and now My training Nights average 20 members. Remember to try and keep it interesting and change it up. Another thing I have found that works for me is to use the experience within your membership to your advantage. You don't have to be the so called instructor all the time. Delegate the responsibility to some of your more knowledgeable members, give them plenty of notice and have them run/teach a training session with supervision if necessary. I have found that this has bolstered my attendance by including those that "I know that stuff"," been there done that" types. Also Have you tried involving neighboring companies that you run mutual aid with? Our training program is still not what I had hoped it to be a year after I took the bull by the horns but it has improved greatly.
All the advice given so far is coming from guys/girls that have been through it or are probably going through the same type of situations and their knowledge is priceless. Take their advice and start using it. Some of it might work and some might not. Consider what you are trying to accomplish as a work in progress, Keep up the hard work and good luck.
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Permalink Reply by Skunk on
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I agree Pretty much with everything said before but it sounds almost like you might be trying a little to hard which can sometimes make training rather boring and repetitive, You sound like me in that you are a cert hound and like to get all the training you can.. but we have to keep in mind especially in volunteer depts that not everyone else is this way and some are possibly even not real good at learning due to Hard head, Big head, learning disabilities, stupidity and god knows what else!! Try making the training more fun and just as a above poster mentioned reward them for attending with food or door prizes or even a cap or shirt, Hell even a whiteboard with those who showed or did not show for training in full view at the station can have a impact.. Now I am not all about buying these guys off in order to get them to fulfill the volunteer duties the obligated to but sad as it is to say at times you must..
Do not be offended by what I said about you as honestly I have no Idea by just reading a post lol
but when you said they scream hands on somehow I got a mental picture of this instructor that taught me one or twice 100% by the book and lesson plan and was completely monotone lol The Monotone is a Genetic trait but the by the Book teaching seems to be a phase all hungry young guys trying to teach go through.. Keep a eye on the Coffee if they are drinking coffee by the Gallon and falling asleep you need to liven up and loosen up a little and engage the students more :)
As far as you're father I can tell you having worked with mine over 10yrs that is one of two things in my opinion
#1
Either he feels you are somewhat overshadowing him and gives you hell to keep you grounded and make him look better at you're expense lol which is a completely normal process from a father that works hands on with his son, It is just his Insecurity as he blossoms into his twilight years and watches you grow, if he did not think you could handle it he wouldn't do it but it sucks none the less he is probably really proud of you.. Next times he pipes up just ask him if he would like to assist in front of the class lol
#2
You are boring the class to death and he is trying to pass you subtle hints by way of rubbing youre nose in it lol
Working with Old Dad is a challenge all in itself :)
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I know I'm not a super great instructor, but I'd like to think I'm not boring and monotone either. I to try to keep things somewhat light and fun, all the while engaging the students.
While I may come off that way based on my posts, I don't think of myself as a cert hound. I would take all the classes I've taken even if there was no piece of paper or state cert at the end. I take them to honestly learn more about the job, so that I can do it better, safer, and more efficient. Again, I advocate continuing education. It just so happens that around here, the main way to get that is to take the certification classes..
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When I took the bull by the horns last year, I too have made strides in what was virtually a nonexistant training program. That program consisted of putting in a video, having it playing in the background while everyone sat and talked, and then passing around a sign-in sheet. We've came a ways from that, but still have a lot to go.
I've thought about doing as you've suggested: taking some of the older members who claim to have everything down pat and let them take the reigns on a class or two, dad included (he's one heckuva pump operator). Put them in front of a class and see how they do... If nothing else, maybe they'll gain a little respect for me in that position.
Also on the docket this year is mutual aid training. I haven't hammered that out 100% yet, but I am in discussion with neighboring departments to get that set up at least a couple times this year.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions, it's just nice to know I'm not alone...
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