Why make a fire defensive, when it doesn't have to be?

Hello all. I live in a Rural area and am a volunteer with a Rural Department. I have been noticing a few issues as of late and would sincerely value your input. One of my biggest concerns is mentioned in the title. It seems that every fire we respond to mutual aid or otherwise, no matter how large or small, from a seemingly simple room and contents, to a fully involved structure is deemed by the powers to be as unsafe. If we were just going to surround and drown, what is the point of even having the title of Firefighter? I thought the point of our job was to save lives AND property...not just to watch a small fire get bigger. I'm a firm believer that if you have interior qualified personnel, and a pumper on the scene capable of containing the fire, then why not? If an interior attack can be effectively done, then do it!
I don't have a whole lot of experience, but I do have enough experience AND common sense to know what I can and cannot do on the scene. If any of you have any input you can offer me on this, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

0 members like this

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on February 23, 2009 at 10:06pm

Note the throttle "balls" and the control panel "wall" in this WWII-era bomber cockpit photo.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve on February 23, 2009 at 10:25pm

I may be wrong here but i don't think anyone is suggesting going into a fully involved house. There is however a place for a good aggressive interior attack. I don't see how anyone can justify leaving a room and contents fire into 2 sticks and a chimney. Use your heads, make an attack and if you get nervous than back it out, but don't let a bed on fire burn a house to the ground just because no ones in there.

To the guy who started the thread, best thing you can do right now is respect the incident command system, comply with what the incident commander request. If you feel changes are needed than work your way into a position where you can accomplish that from.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on February 23, 2009 at 10:58pm

Well I say this....no firefighters life is worth someones big screen tv....Yes we are supposed to save lives and property btu it should be LIVES and property not the other way around.

Now that being said if we have all the right conditions then I am in favor of an interior attack. What are the conditions you ask well here are some.
The structure can support an interior attack (even if someone is trapped if the structure doesn't give me time to rescue them then we don't go)
Some one is trapped in the occupancy and they are viable (if someone says my kid mother wife sister is up there and they point to a windo that has fire blowing out of it then its not a rescue its a recovery)
Does someone live in this house and do we have an RIT (I am not going into a building that no one lives in and I am not going in unless I have people to come get me if something goes wrong)
Do I have the people to effectivley effect and interior attack (It takes people to make interior attack happen )

Thats just a few factors that have to be processed in a compressed time frame on the fireground. Alot can be done from the exterior prior to making entry ever think of when you have an attic fire pulling down the exterior soffit and shooting water into the attic space? Ever think about utilizing a blitz attack with your prepiped deck gun and dunmping 500 gpms on a fire then going in to finish the job? All things that can eb done from the exterior that are not only safer but may even be more effective.

I love crawling down the smokey hallway to but with todays construction and house furnishings made from synthetic materials causing hotter fires with toxic smoke and causing early failure of structural members sometimes it just doesn't make sense.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by turk182 on February 23, 2009 at 11:12pm

Since you are talking about rural fire fighting I guess I will chime in on this one.

There is a lot of variables that the officers have to take in account when fighting a rural fire some of those would be.
1. stage of fire upon arrival.
2. stability of the structure.
3. availability of the water source to fight the fire. If you do not have enough water to sustain an interior attack and have to call for a tanker shuttle to be set up then conditions might not be suitable to go inside by the time the water arrives.

If you have to rely on the tanker shuttle and the water to fill those tankers or tenders as some call them is a good distance away they may not keep up with the flow rate to fight the fire. You also have to make sure you have enough water so you can protect exposers if you start losing the interior fight.

I am not saying that I would not do an interior attack but the officers have to way alot of information before doing so.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sam S. on February 24, 2009 at 12:51am

I have now taken the time to read each and every post on this discussion, many very good points of view have been raised and some questionable. Speaking from experience in rural firefighting and having spent 10 yrs serving on 2 departments on what you could say is the opposite ends of the scale "interior vs. exterior" I know first hand the many factors that the IC must take into consideration when chosing how to deal with a fire. The one main factor that I havent really noticed mentioned but only a couple of times is the level of training the department has and the skill level of those first on scene. Another very important factor is the competency of the IC, if the IC doesnt have the ability to do a proper size up and read whats in front of them, my experience says they will go with a defensive stance every time. They do this because they dont know what to look for or how to read what is in front of them at the time. Now I agree 100 percent with the risk vs benefit statements made so far. But I also know that many fires deemed defensive by an inexperienced IC are very saveable if read properly by a knowing IC with a good well trained experienced crew to perform the task. The most important thing I can say is no matter your personal feelings the only thing that matters at the end of the fire is that EVERYONE GOES HOME. Lets stop that damn song "the beat goes on" lets all get smart with our safety and get our brothers/sisters home safe.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on February 24, 2009 at 1:26am

I can definately respect that. And I do agree that maybe I should have worded my statement differently. I know what I'm trying to say I just can get it to come out the way I want it to. But as far as big city and small rural goes that's what I was talking about with the different levels of aggressiveness. I would definately bow down to him because he is doing what I wish I could do. It's just frustrating when you know what you want to say but don't know how to put it and then having someone pick apart what you did say and make it harder to get your point out. But he is making me think. But I was the one using balls to the wall to describe a full on attack.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John M. Scheibel on February 24, 2009 at 9:56am

Hi Sam;

I concur with you; So I will open another "Can of Worms"..."Compentencies of the IC"

Coming from a State; that Leads the Nation in Goofiness; I fully realize what this value is. I was one of the LAST PEOPLE to see Adam Croman; Lairdsville, NY; on the dreadful day of his Incident. He, along with myself, and 5 other FF's Won the Coveted Green Cross from HURST on that very Day, a few hours before his Incident. I can recall his Last Words as he left; " I'm off to Home to help with Training, I'll see you tomorrow"..!

In a Nutshell, we "Annoint Officers" in many FD's because they are "GOOD JOES", and no because of past Training and or Excellence in Training and the Fireground. If we can not establish a "Good Feeling", that I CAN RELY ON You, by some Form of Testing, how can we feel comfortable ? Sometimes we just re hash past things, whether wrong or right, and what's wrong continues to be wrong.

I will leave you with saying, it might be NY ish but it may hold some merit here; " Barbers need to be Licensed To Cut your Hair, but Incident Commanders Do Not...How many people has your Barber Killed or Maimed ?"

Thank You...Be Safe

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on February 24, 2009 at 4:31pm

Where's the guy who started this thread?
They ask the question and you never hear from them again.
If you didn't do this as a science project, feel free to chime in at any time!
TCSS.
Art