Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rich Ruehl on June 20, 2008 at 8:03am

Mike, why does your name sound familiar? Have you been to IAFF Conventions? Have you spoken at the mic during business sessions? I know that I have seen your name somewhere before today. Any way...

I am not sure how it works in Illinois but I feel pretty confident in saying that the volunteer fire deparmtents within Howard County could never be compelled to, nor would they ever agree to voluntarily, contribute money toward out pensions or disability funds. The Maryland Worker's Compensation Law's provide benefits under various conditions for all firefighters in Maryland; career, volunteer, part-time, contingent, etc.

It has not happened yet that our County Council has questioned why we continually ask for more more and better salary increases when fully 1/3 of our membership leaves work and does it for free. God help us if/when that questions ever arises. But it is something that concerns me. I would like to see our county prohibit it's career firefighters from volunteering or working part-time for other departments. A jurisdiction in Rhode Island (I think) did this several years ago under the belief that they were losing "time" from their firefighters when they were injured at other FD employment of volunteering activities.

I tell folks all of the time; what happens when you have been a career firefighter for 10 years in Howard County and a volunteer or part-time firefighter in another jurisdiction for 15 years, and you haven't stopped. You've got a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a car payment and you contract Hep B. The problem is, Howard County has no record on file of any needle sticks or exposures and neither does your volunteer or part-time department/jurisdiction. Howard County denies your claim for benefits through their Worker's Compensation, which they probably will because they deny many things just to get the employee to prove it came from their employment relationship. So, you file a claim with your volunteer or part-time department/jurisdiction and they deny it because, "Hell, you've been a career employee in Howard for 10 years working every third day for 24 hours. They chances are far greater that you contracted Hep B there."

So, now what do you do? You are getting sicker by the day, you can't work any more, your claims have ths far been denied, your WC attorney is working with you but isn't making any headway, your wife has goen back to work (two jobs), you've sold your car and gotten a clunker to replace it, and you are just about out of money.

Yes, you could have gotten hurt building houses. And yes, you could have gotten hurt doing electrical work. And yes, you could have gotten hurt working on cars, or cutting grass or whatever. But, the fact is, none of those part-time jobs would have complicated your claim.

Is it a little bit of a reach, this example? Maybe. But it illustrates one of the issues involved in two-hatting or volunteering.

Just my opinion.

Rich Ruehl, President
IAFF Local 2000
Howard County, MD

Permalink Reply by Mike Kilburg on June 20, 2008 at 11:01am

Rich in the greater Chicago area it isnt about volunteering. Its about part-time work. The problem of IAFF members causing trouble to fellow members when acting as volunteer officers seems to be more of an East Coast problem. It is really hard for some locals to justify increases in wages and benefits when management throws the fact they have bargaining unit members working one town over for 15 bucks an hour. I can understand if you live out in the boondocks and want to serve your community. I get it. But our situation is not that at all. I have one member of my local who is a Paid-on-call where he lives. When he retires thats it. The international dosent really back up local officers who file charges against two-hatters. So many of us dont want to put up with the aggravation that comes with it. It comes down to union members taking a deep look inside themselves and deciding where their loyalties are. Unfortunately many times its the part-time/volunteer department. Our state association is developing an extensive data base to see just how large of a problem it is here in Illinois. On a side note... There is another fireman who shares my name in the city of Detroit. Never met him.

Permalink Reply by BILLY NORMAN on July 21, 2008 at 5:42pm

I am also President of our local3814 I too have some members that just want to ride the ride but no work. I agree it make sthe local lok bad and the department as well. I have been in discussion with my state president she advises me not accept thier dues any more and let them fend for themselves. I hate to do it but something has to be done

Permalink Reply by Rich Ruehl on July 21, 2008 at 6:26pm

So far as I know, we could do the same here; not collect their dues. But the law says that we have to represent all "bargaining unit members" whether they pay dues or not. So, that being the case, we might as well collect from them to help defray the cost of their representation.

We have it good; don't get me wrong. I would venture to say that we are probably one of few open shop Locals that has 100% membership from those ranks that are eligible. I can't really complain. But it frosts my you-know-what's that we have guys doing this stuff in other IAFF jurisdictions.

I'm with Brother Kilburg; hey, if you live in the middle of no man's land and you are the only thing standing between your neighbor and his house that is burning down, then who am I to get pissy. But come on, a firefighter being an officer in a volunteer fire department and giving orders to Lieutenants in other jurisdictions; I am not down with that.

Permalink Reply by Rat Pack on September 4, 2008 at 10:03am

I am a member in a local of 76 members. We are the largest department in our area unless you travel about 50 miles. We have a few members that continue to volunteer because of many of the reasons already listed in other posts. What makes me crazy is that were I live, they have a union of about 7 members. They continue to allow members from other locals to work part-time and/or volunteer. The part that makes me crazy is that when I had to call for the FD to come to my home for a CO alarm, 1 fire fighter showed up with a meter that had a dead battery. Once he called for a "cop" to come and replace the batteries, the meter was showing a reading of -13 PPM. I don't know if the meter was not calibrated or what. This type of service is an absolute joke. What makes me more crazy is, why our fellow members, our union brothers, would want to be a part of a fly-by-night outfit. I think greed and the need to only worry about themselves is the reason behind this. If these members are "true professionals" they would back the smaller unions by trying to improve them by educating the public, not making the situation worse by being that one guy on the truck (as is the case in my area). All they are doing is giving the public a false sense of security by providing a skeleton crew, THIS IS NOT PUBLIC SAFETY. My taxes are above $6,500 and this is the best they can do? When I wrote a letter to "those in charge", I never got a letter back and get dirty looks when I see the FD around town. Our unions (large and small) need to market ourselves better and be willing to help each other out (and I don't mean by volunteering). I feel that we should be going to town and city meetings within our own communities and demand better services. I know where I work, we can easily show why it is better to have a career department (response times, staffing, keeping fires small, etc....) I don't want people to think I forgot where I came from since I got my start as a volunteer, I just think that I am now more educated on the subject since I have seen both sides of the coin. This is a subject that won't go away for a long time, but we should be willing to take on these people with the truth about our profession. Please visit my unions website where we try to market ourselves: www.newlondonfirefightersunion.org

Permalink Reply by Ed on September 23, 2008 at 4:33pm

Wow. This is a REALLY touch subject where I'm from.. I've been a volunteer firefighter for 10 years. I recently took a job with a career department. I've had 3 of our local executive board members pull me aside and more or less beg me to drop the volunteer department. Thats quite frustrating from my stand point. I mean, I was a vollie long before I came to this department and I'll do it long after I leave this department. I mean, to ME that is the true defination of PRIDE in the job. Doing it without expecting something in return. I'm not insinuating that everyone else does it for the wrong reason, but I don't understand how a lot of folks put your brothers down who do the job for free, on their own time, away from their family.. I do understand the point about the city not wanting to put on more career guys because of the vollies, but that just come down to educating the city about the difference..

Permalink Reply by Rich Ruehl on September 23, 2008 at 9:11pm

Brother Ed, might I inquire... are you a union member where you work full-time? You can have all of the pride you want about what you do. When your pride is what is causing fellow Union brothers financial harm, that is when your pride has gotten in the way. Case in point...

Here in central Maryland, several career departments are facing furloughs. Thus far, my department is not one of them. In a neighboring county there are hundreds of volunteers who are Union brothers in other departments who come to this particular county and volunteer. It doesn't matter to the county how many volunteers there are, it doesn't matter to the county how many calls they run, how fast they get the equipment out for calls, or whether any volunteers are actually at the station prepared to respond. It only matters to the powers that be that there are several hundred volunteers "on the books." The volunteer chiefs have convinced the department that they will be able to handle things during the furloughs. One of the reasons that public safety employees (specifically FF's) were not exempt from the furloughs was because the county was assured that there would be enough volunteers to take care of things. Imagine a fellow Union brother coming to your place of work and saying to you, "That's alright Ed, you can go home today without pay. I can take it from here."

Maybe you would feel differently if that happened to you. It happened in my department in 1991. Guys showed up for work and were told, "Thanks, but we don't need you today." And walking into the firehouse to volunteer were two career union members from a neighboring county. Think about that for a minute. These guys are going to lose two (2) weeks of pay. That is a mortgage payment for a lot of people.

I'll be damned if I am going to listen to a speach about pride at that point. It has nothing to do with pride.

Educating people who don't wish to be educated is quite frustrating. Try it some time. I would assume that you will want to see regular pay increases at your job as a career fire fighter, correct? What if your jurisdiction came to your Local Union and said, "Yeah, that proposal you gave us for a 6% pay increase to catch up with comparable jurisdictions, well, you can forget it. We don't see a need to pay you guys more when alot of your members leave here and go do it for free." Maybe you'd feel differently about it then, too. I don't know.

To me, this isn't a touchy subject at all. This is pretty cut and dried. Continue to be a volunteer all you want. No one is stopping you. But think about where your bread is buttered now. When what you do on your own time has a negative impact on me and my family, that's when I've got issues.

Rich Ruehl, Howard County, MD

Permalink Reply by Ed on September 24, 2008 at 6:44pm

Rich, Please undstand that I do understand your concern and the issues that your area departments are facing. The thing I DO NOT understand is, what happens when the volunteer departments are gone? Can your department handle your entire county? I can tell you that my department could NOT handle the entire county. We (my paid dept) are surrounded by 11 volunteer departments in our county. Though some of them are absolutely horrendous, some do a phenomenal job of fire protection and some are trained to the same or in some cases, a higher level than some of our paid guys. I do not want to see any of my union brothers out of a job or facing hardships. Because they're all my family. If that is what you took from my post, then I apologize for not being more clear.

Think though about the sheer magnatude of the volunteer fire service. I mean, 72% of the firefighters in the united states are volunteers. Thats pretty powerful undisputable fact. So I pose the question.. If all paid firefighters who are also volunteers left their volly department in support of their paid brothers, do you think this issue will go away? I speaking from the numbers, I'd say that there will ALWAYS be volunteers (non-affiliated with paid dept) that will step in and do the same. Thats all I'm saying..

I would NEVER EVER put down a union brother, but I would also never put down someone who does for the most part, the same job as I do, but for free. Ultimately, my loyalty lies with those who feed my children and my wife and pays my bills. If it come down to it, I would have no reservation to leaving my volly dept. But I want to make sure we're not busting the balls of ALL vollies just because a few dumbass city council folks don't know what they're talking about..

Ed Ward, Crawfordsville, IN

Permalink Reply by Rat Pack on September 26, 2008 at 11:44am

The problem that I have with the volunteer side of things, is that many departments where I live, are running on shoe strings. They have very limited manpower and they are increasingly calling for mutual aid for calls that they should easily be able to handle. Where I live, they should create a townwide or county wide department, instead of letting all of these little individual depts. run on their own. Many of them are facing the same problems, but don't work together to correct the problem. Many have their own set of Chief's, officers, etc... Too many chief's and not enough indians. There is no way that I can be a part of this type of operation. I think many of the people involved would say they have a problem (behind the scenes), but when anyone talks about consolidating services so that there can be better oversight, operations, grouping of resources, etc.... they go crazy and get all of their "chowder" members to come out. I have even seen them roll guys into meetings in wheelchairs. Common sense needs to come into play here, and our members, who call themselves professionals, should not be part of the problem. I am not at all saying that my career job is perfect, but that is where I spend my time in efforts, trying to make it better. My pride and commitment is in my job.

Permalink Reply by Ed on September 26, 2008 at 12:21pm

Very well said. I'm all for the vollies forming their own county association and do things on their own, but as long as they're doing it collaboratively. The bigger issue has been that some of the guys from the paid side choose not to play well with others (vollies) and thats what has forced our vollies to do things on their own (IN MY AREA THAT IS!)..

Anyway, well put...

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