Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by ILDisasterEMT on January 5, 2008 at 10:41pm

Hey Steven- (my name too)-

I had a few thoughts as I read your proposed chart. Im a member of the Illinois Medical Emergency Response Team (IMERT) and we go strictly by NIMS/ICS. Im also working on my master's degree in Disaster and Emergency Management. The goal of ICS (and also one of the problems in implementing it) is to get EVERYONE to follow it exactly the same way. I can only assume from what you have here that this is the order your chart/table or organization follows. So far, Ive taken ICS 100,200,700 and 800 (Incident Command) and the thing that is hammered home is that its always organized the same way, every single time. So for instance, the first thing that would be at the top of your chart would be the name and title of your IC (ex: Joe Smith, Captain, XYZ FD) and his name and title would include the time he took command, and, in a multiple day scenario, the date.

The next thing you should include (by the way I applaud your efforts to get ICS working in your department, many fire departments and EMS agencies dont bother until the time of an event) is the command staff which is the Safety Officer, the Public Information Officer, and your Liaison Officer who would deal with other agencies as they show up when they are requested (called assisting agencies) or just show up to lend a hand (co-operating agencies). By the way, co-operating agencies have little to no (emphasis on no) responsibility for the outcome of the situation. They can leave any time they want either to respond to another scene or if they just dont feel like being their anymore.

The next level of organization after your Command Staff is your General Staff, which ideally would include: Operations Officer (or section if you incident is that big), Planning, Logistics and Admin.

I know you are probably talking about a single, non-mass casualty incident, but even so, the ICS way works and works well. And God forbid it should happen that your fire, rescue, explosion, etc gets bigger than you anticipated, wouldnt it be nice (effective) to have an abbreviated form of ICS in place so you dont have to scramble to figure it out when the need arises. Also, in my experience, sometimes the Chief isnt the first to arrive, which would put a LT or the person with highest rank in charge until the Chief gets on scene. In this case, your ICS diagram should include a space to indicate at what time the first person took control as IC and then at what time the new IC took over. This helps people know who they are listening to and also for your AAR (After Action Report) it gives a sense of who made what decisions and when so that you can include either best practices or corrective actions for you next big incident.

All in all it seems like what you have come up with so far is pretty d&*^ close to being the way ICS sets it up. The only reason I suggested changes is so that if you get mutual aide or an assisting agency that does use ICS at a higher level, you're all speaking the same language if that makes sense.

PS- If you really want to go ICS, when your chief or other highest ranking person arrives to take over as IC, there should be a formal transfer of authority document which is as simple as a paragraph including the name of the person assuming IC, at what date and time, why they are taking over, any limitations to the scope of their authority and when their authority as IC expires, which could just be listed as "when incident is contained to public safety levels."

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Permalink Reply by Paul H on January 5, 2008 at 11:33pm

Steven: I agree - NIMS is pretty much the universal standard, and one has to question why someone would reinvent the wheel. As I've previously stated, most of our fire incidents are wildland related (some 15% of total calls, with structure being ~5%). We use the NIMS protocols 100% of the time, since we end up interfacing with multiple jurisdictions.

Additionally, god forbid, a LODD should occur due to a poor ICS system, it's up to the agency to justify WHY they chose not to use a standardized version. Furthermore, there is existing training available to the department that easily eliminates the headache of having to create your own.

Just my 2 cents worth, your mileage may vary.

Be safe.

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Permalink Reply by Erin Davis on January 6, 2008 at 12:35am

Hi Steven. Your report Can include Incident Name, Incident controller, Date Time, Shift hrs to hrs,Minimum reprt times, Location, Control cebtre, operation point, resting, diviions and sectors and names of each controllers, Personnel whether Dept, Volunteer, other, police etc, resources, tankers, other vehicles, machines tracks & wheels, Areas in State, Nat Parks, Nature Res, Priv Prop, Stakeholders, Situation- perimeter (km) contained, controlled, tracked & edged, tracked only, no work done, Losses- All sectors -Near Hit, person-injury, person-death, building, vehicle/plant, livestock fencing, agency resources- allocated- Additional resources required, Control objectives, Contol Strategies, Comments, Estimated Date & Time of Control, prepared by. I Hope some of these items will help you with your form. See ya Erin

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Permalink Reply by Terry Lambert on January 6, 2008 at 12:36am

I have to agree. NIMS is the way to go. I just finished up my 100, 200, 700, and 800. We interact with multiple departments, and they all use it. Everyone knows where they fit in, and makes things easier.

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Permalink Reply by ILDisasterEMT on January 6, 2008 at 5:03am

Erin-

Your posting shows why proper implementation of ICS is so vitally important. Many of the things you have listed here would go into an Operational Period Briefing which is given by the IC or Operations Commander. The OPB is given at regular intervals based on what the IC/Command Team has decided is an operational period which is usually, for sake of calculation, is most often 8 or 12 hours.

For example: if we were to take the large amount of information you listed above and put it all into one report, it has the distinct possibility of becoming overwhelming to the reader and confusing. Exactly what ICS is trying to avoid. For ease of interpretation, lets look at the things that wouldnt need to be included in the OPB:

1. Shift hours to hours- this is likely established at the ICP at the beginning of emergency services involvement and would be covered when responders are told what the duration of their Operational Period will be.

2.Control Centre- no need to included it in any briefing other than the first unless it has been moved.

3. Perimeter contained - I assume you are talking about fire here and this would be included in the Operational Period Briefing as would areas where no work has been done, losses of equipment and personnel during the given OP

4. Estimated Time and Date of Control- proper documentation eliminates the need for estimation and estimation can make analyzing and preparing your AAR very difficult

5. Injuries, Deaths, etc are monitored by a combination of your Safety Officer (a command team member), your DMORT team, if one is present and available and your chief medical officer.

These are just a few of the things that could be consolidated under the ICS rubric to make things easier to understand, etc. "No work done" for example falls into amount of completion stated in the Incident Action Plan.

It may all sound nit-picky, but ICS is nit-picky and that is why it works. We really cant just be making up categories. Also, if you take (or refresh yourself) on ICS 200, its states where virtually everything you list would be accounted for though Im not sure where livestock fencing would come in except at the end since the priority of ICS is :1. Safety of human lives 2. Mitigation of the incident itself and 3. Protection of the environment and private and public property.

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Permalink Reply by steven mcgilbery on January 6, 2008 at 9:44am

Thanks guys, we also go by NIMS, this is just a chart to help the IC when giving out orders and to beable to tell who is on scene and who is free to do another assisnment, i am not trying to go behind and creat something else, just a AID/TOOL to help and not get confused with multiple companys on location. Thanks again

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Permalink Reply by ILDisasterEMT on January 6, 2008 at 10:08am

I see what you mean, but thats why ICS stresses keeping so many records that are available to ICs, deputy ICs, division and branch commanders, etc. This is why FORMAL communication is much preferred over informal communication. When my disaster medical team IC walks up, the first thing he asks is "how many boots do I have on the ground and what can they do?" Of course he has an insane memory that hasnt forgotten anything since he was 3 and is constantly fueled up on mountain dew. I think they point with your chart was that its a good idea, but try to make it more in line with ICS so that assisting and co-operating agencies can walk into your ICP as see exactly what happened at what time, who took over as IC when.

Just dont make the mistake that NIMS and ICS are the same thing. They arent. The reason that so many experts spent so long developing ICS was so that it works first time, everytime, which is what you want. You can always add and subtract things from the ICS flow that you dont need, but its generally not a good idea to start adding in your own elements. Ive worked as an IC once and a Deputy IC once and what made things run was an absolutely religious adherence to ICS. Know it inside and out. Love it. In the future it will be how everything from a fire at KFC to a human -created MCI will be run and I can tell you from experience it works. As far as who is on scene and what they can do, thats a job left for Operations and Logistics over in the staging area who report back to you, using a runner if they have to, to tell you what equipment is ready to go, how many operators for said equipment you have, etc. Also remember that there is a reason that that PIO is at the top of the command chart. NOTHING goes out info-wise unless he and the IC agree that it should. That was the one of the problems with the recent coal mine collapse in Utah. No one quite new who was in charge of giving out information or for that matter who was in charge at all.

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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on January 6, 2008 at 5:27pm

There is a lot of excellent advise in the replies above. Please go to the website
http://www.nimsonline.com/nims_training/index.htm
Your department really needs to take advantage of the work done the last 30 years on Incident Management rather than try and reinvent the wheel
Good Luck and stay safe
Ron

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Permalink Reply by steven mcgilbery on January 6, 2008 at 7:00pm

i am not trying to reinvent anything just a chart so who ever is IC, can go ok engine 1, you have fire attack on division 2, ok engine 3 you have RIT, Engine 24 you have ventilation....so on and so on...... just something to write down, so 10 or 30 min later you are not going who is fire attack, you already know! and a place to write down who is where and where to put them.... not a re invent a thing, did not know this would be a big deal, just a question on is there anything to add to the "LIST" of duties, not hey go read your NIMS again and don't do anything else BUT nims!! thanks for all your ideas.....thanks

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Permalink Reply by ILDisasterEMT on January 6, 2008 at 8:34pm

Im not saying you are trying to re-invent the wheel...at least I dont think I was until now. By about 2010 or 2011 NIMS/ICS will be mandatory and tailored to each emergency response agency. When you have a situation of enough size or complexity to activate ICS, you should be able to go to the shelf in the chief's office, pull out three or four big red binders, and everything you need is laid out there right before you. People get complacent and ignore charts on walls. Also, how many charts would you have? You cant conceive every possible incident. Whereas, ICS is flexible and adaptible, allows you to see what you have available and ready (staging) and what you can put into action immediately. For different areas of your AOR, where would you put you ICP? Right near the exploding chemical plant? A mile up wind and up hill? These are the things that detailed study of ICS and its implementation make second nature so that there is less, if any, need for a chart on the wall. A good IAP is hundreds and hundreds of pages. If you have a mass casualty incident, a chart on the wall of the truck bay probably isnt going to get it done in enough detail. I think what people are saying is that you are trying to Cliffs Notes ICS when it is already all out there in book from FEMA and DHS for you.

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Permalink Reply by ILDisasterEMT on January 6, 2008 at 9:23pm

After re-reading your original post about 20 times (hey Im getting my masters in Emergency and Disaster Management) I think I see what some others and to a certain extent myself, are seeing as problems.

First off, there are three priorities in ICS:

1.Life Saving
2.Incident Stabilization
3. Preservation of Structures and Property

If you look at your first post in this thread, you can see why we have been saying pay less attention to making up a chart and pay more attention to what ICS gives you. I realize that you are a fire department and so are looking at it from that standpoint, but if we look at your list, here is what we get:

Fire attack: Incident Stabilization and Preservation of Structure and Property (Priority 2)
Water Supply: if for drinking (priority 1) if for fire fighting (priority two)
RIT (sorry, not a fire fighter, I dont recognize this abbreviation)
Search (and rescue, I assume): Life Saving (Priority 1, yet its 4th on your list your casualty count is climbing by this point)
Ventilation (Saving of life Priority1...if for Preservation of Property: Priority 3)
Salvage (Preservation of Property: Priority 3)
Extension Group: ???
Rehab: For your fire fighters, EMS crew? (Priority 1)

Your Incident Commander, Safety Officer and Public Liaison Officer are in the ICP, a safe yet functional distance from disaster epi-center and need to be ready to be moved as your incident grows and moves.

Operations, Logistics, etc are in your General Staff, secondary to the Command Staff

As for the place for your crews and equipment to wait to be put into action, its a staging area, often near the ICP and safe and quickly moveable if need be.

Also, its not a matter of going back and reading your NIMS/ICS again, its a matter of knowing them like back of your hand in the first place.

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Permalink Reply by steven mcgilbery on January 6, 2008 at 10:01pm

First off, that is just a list not the order we go in, of corse life safety (ours and the victims) is priority one! if there is a chance of saving them. if not i guess you go to property conservation if possible. RIT is the FF's life line if we get into trouble and need help. i prolly need to go back and read the nims again b/c i am not upto date with them as i should be. This list was for a house fire senario, not no big wild fire or hazmat scene...just the basic house fire, what companys do what and to keep track of them...Thanks

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