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Who should be in charge of the apparatus while responding to the scene?
This topic comes up when I am assigned to engineer. I believe that the engineer should have the say what goes on inside the cab while the vehicle is in motion. My reason is if your involve in a wreck who is going to be sited. In a case that happen in a county next to mine a quint responding code 3 T-Boned a car a killed the occupants inside. The driver tried in court for the deaths, and the local media covered the story only on the driver. My understanding is that the officer riding in the appropriate seat was not charged or any actions taken. Only internal. With this accident speed was a factor and responding to a general alarm drop. Looking for opinions on this and if some dept's have SOG's on the topic.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Lieutenant Altman on
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I believe that the Engineer should be have total say so on what happens on the apparatus. he is the ENGINEER!! if that engineer is a good engineer he/she will not pull out of the house until everything is like they want it ex. seatbelts, location of personnel, ect.. An engineers job is to run that piece of apparatus he has been put in charge in. with that said i think he should have total say so of what happens with the apparatus from the time it leaves the station until it gets back to the house. I feel like it is unfair if they only have say so when the wheels arent turning.
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Permalink Reply by Medicine Man on
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At my dept. the driver is ULTIMATELY responsible for the correct and safe operation of the apparatus while it is moving whether emergency or non-emergency. The officer is responsible for the safe operation of all aspects of his crew. In the state of Ohio the driver is always going to be responsible for any crash, traffic violation etc. However the officer can do many things to help insure the safe operation. When I am in "the seat" I make sure I clear the right side of the vehicle, state when it is clear to the driver and continue to monitor as we move through the intersection. I stay back as to not block the mirrors, control all warning signals and radio traffic. We use headsets in the cab so communication is much easier to understand. We ARE required to stop at all redlights and stop signs and to reduce speed when moving thru greenlights and other intersections. We also use the opticom, however I never rely on them when I am driving they just react to slow at most intersections. We also are limited to 10 mph over the posted spead limit for normal dry conditions. All personell are required to take annual driving tests and pass CEVO III class. If you as a driver due something the officer does not want you to do or operate recklessly you will be advised to make corrections and if not done you will be "parked." I have seen it happen. Myself personally will get very upset if I am the officer that day and you go thru a redlight or stop sign "without due regard" which to me means "STOP!!"
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Permalink Reply by Firefighter Nation WebChief on
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In the case of the first instance....unless the driver is driving like a maniac, seems like the Officer would have more than enough to worry about providing directions, listening to the radio, getting himself ready than to worry about whether a red light changed to green on a sensor....the driver is responsible for the vehicle.
In your second case....if your officer is putting on his coat obstructing your view, you need to work that out with them and tell 'em to quit blocking the freakin window....and if you can't see stop the fire truck until you can
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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The officer riding in the front passenger seat should be in charge of the apparatus.
While it is the drivers' responsibility to operate the apparatus in a safe and responsible manner, it is the officers' duty to see that the driver DOES operate the vehicle safely.
If the officer sees that the driver is blowing through stop signs or lights without showing due regard, that officer should a) chew him a new anal opening and/or b) replace the driver with another member after arrival at the scene. Remedial training for the entire crew would not be amiss, in case anyone is wondering why the officer is so upset.
Someone made the comment that the driver has the ultimate say on how the rig is operated. I will add "as long as the safest course of action is taken." If the driver feels the apparatus can't be driven over a surface, or bridge safely, then OK. Having the driver decide to fly through intersections without stopping to get to a dumpster fire - absolutely no way.
The officer has to see that seat belts are worn also, but that's a different discussion.
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Permalink Reply by turk182 on
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I believe the officer has should have total control of the apparatus.
When you have a driver driving to fast or not stopping at stop signs the the officer needs to be able to get him under control.
But that being said the driver should also not move the truck until everyone has there gear on and are seated and belted. That way they do not have to worry about people dressing in the cab while the truck is in motion.
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Permalink Reply by Drew Tenhundfeld on
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I can see your point on this. As an operator I've had an officer pack-up while in route and block my view on the right side. In your opinion do I have the right as an operator to say pack-up before we leave the station or after arriving on the scene. If that officer is the reason for a accident are they going to ask him or his Lic. or the operator.
There has to be a time where the operator can say this needs to happen before we leave or after we arrive, and not be pulled into the office for working in a safe manor.
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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Our dept's driving policy states that no one shall operate a emergency motor vehicle without exercising due care and caution for the safety of the public, and no member of the department shall endanger life or property by the operation of a motor vehicle in negligent manor. It is also stated that any dept personnel driving any dept vehicle will be held accoutable for their actions. When our department is responding to a call, and the apparatus is entering a intersection on a red light/stop sign,the driver must come to a complete stop and visuallly observe that all other vehicles have come to a COMPLETE stop before proceeding. It also states that no dept personnel shall at any time operate a motor vehicle at such a rate of speed or in such a manner so as to cause the person to lose control over the operations and/or direction of the vehicle or otherwise needlessly endanger the innocent public.
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Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on
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It is the D/O apparatus till they get to the scene. Tell the person in the right seat to sit down and S.T.F.U. Once the parking brake is applied then the officer can dictate. A good officer will let the D/O do his job.
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The officer should be wise enough to know that he/she is blocking the driver's view, and to just SIT - with seatbelt on - while the rig is in motion. Also the SOP should prohibit donning or doffing of gear while en route, ESPECIALLY in the front seat.
I do not think it is out of bounds for the driver to say "Hey, Loo could ya sit back? I can't see."
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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If you are the Driver/Engineer, the driving is your responsibility. Your Officer can give direction, but common sense is also called for. For example if your Officer told you to run the red light. That would be an unlawful order. As the operator of that vehicle, you need to know right from wrong, regardles of what your officer says! And like Dave said, if he's blocking the window and you can't see, stop the freakin' truck!
"The problem that I have is that the officer like to put their coat and scba on while going down the road."
It also sounds like seatbelts aren't being worn. C'mon guys it's 2008!
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If this was happening to me, and I couldn't get the officer to see the error of his ways, I'd go to that officer's supervisor,(Captain. Batt.Chief, etc.). Maybe if the Fire Chief knew about this, he's put a stop to it right away. It's a huge safety issue!
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Drew, you said earlier that the equipment that changes the traffic light (opticom), was not working. When that happens we need to STOP and proceed with caution. We cannot simply fly through the intersection because the light didn't change like it's supposed to.
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