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Younger chiefs/officers
Had something happen in our county that raised a few eyebrows and figured I would throw it out and see what the emotions are. Recently, a company in the area elected a 21-year-old chief. I had heard (nothing factual, just strictly hear-say) that some of the members had issues with this. Many of them, of course, being the older and more experienced members. I am not sure if they are upset about being outranked by a younger, less experienced individual or reasonably feel that he is incapable. Just curious to see what everyones opinion is on the situation.
I am a young officer myself. I was 21 when I was appointed to the fire sergeant position. I am confident in my abilities, both on scene and in station, as are the members under me. Our system is designed so the fire chief is elected in December and takes office in January (one year term). The chief then chooses his officers and presents them for approval of the company at the January meeting. The chief of course has his own opinions and courses that he feels an individual should have before being placed in the position. Of course, no chief would place anyone in an officer position if he/she were not comfortable being represented by this individual or having this individual making decisions be it on the fireground or in the station. I would hope that the general membership electing a chief, no matter how that particular stations system is designed, would abide by the same guidelines. I feel that as long as the individual has the knowledge (station workings, incident stabilization, personnel issues, etc.)and maturity and has demonstrated such, then age should not be an issue.
I am a young officer myself. I was 21 when I was appointed to the fire sergeant position. I am confident in my abilities, both on scene and in station, as are the members under me. Our system is designed so the fire chief is elected in December and takes office in January (one year term). The chief then chooses his officers and presents them for approval of the company at the January meeting. The chief of course has his own opinions and courses that he feels an individual should have before being placed in the position. Of course, no chief would place anyone in an officer position if he/she were not comfortable being represented by this individual or having this individual making decisions be it on the fireground or in the station. I would hope that the general membership electing a chief, no matter how that particular stations system is designed, would abide by the same guidelines. I feel that as long as the individual has the knowledge (station workings, incident stabilization, personnel issues, etc.)and maturity and has demonstrated such, then age should not be an issue.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Damon Dyer on
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Age don't matter . What about 24 year old that was a cadet for 2 years then at 18 become a firefighter takes extra classes and does his training . Compare that to a 40 year old that has 2 years in took his primary classes attends training and hardly ever goes to classes . Or even the 50 year old that has been around for 15 years does not take extra classes fights fire in half his turnouts and comes to training if he don't have anything else to do . I know all three and i know which one i trust . Which one will you trust ??
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Permalink Reply by Ray Evans Jr on
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I know which one I'll follow also, I got lost alittle and alittle off subject above. One of the things I was trying to get across is that we all have our own experance level, some of us have dedicated our lives to fire fighting and to others it's just a hobby. No matter the age. The people I've read comments from on here that do nothing but say it's a recipe for disaster and he's going to get some one killed, don't help things along they hinder. I think it's a broken system or atleast in my area it is, elections and apointed officers are in nothing more than a popularity contest. I want officers who know the job, not some one who kissed the right tush. That don't help me it a fire.
I hope that we get to share some more ideas and conversations.
Thank you and stay safe.
Ray Evans Jr
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Permalink Reply by Rae Ann Ozelis on
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I'd have to say that I would have to agree with you.......hands down
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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This is OK, but we need to quantify what "experience" is.
5-6 years on some companies will see very little- on others you won't have time to scratch your nuts!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Trust no one.
Why would you put yourself into a position where you would have to rely on someone else to get you out in the first place.
If anyone is as educated as they claim, then they should know how to read a building/how to read smoke and keep themselves out of trouble.
Trust yourself.
Art
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I wouldn't put myself in a position that I have to rely on some one to get me through. But there are firefighters that I work with in my Dept and niegboring depts, that I would walk through the gates of hell with and I know that we are going to walk back out. There is also firefighters that I work with that I don't want on my sceane, they are unsafe and have little or no training. A few of them have more years in the fire service then I am old, and I've seen them make bad calls and hurt fire fighters due to a lack of training. A few are also my age.
I know I was very lucky in getting the guys who taught me what I know, I owe them the world. But because they taught me what they have and are still teaching me, I know that I can get myself out of trouble by myself and get my guys out with the knowledge they have and continue to give me. But I also know that I still need to go out and chase all the knowledge I can, I will always have new things to learn and train on. But also to train and drill the basics. I will never really master this because theres always something new to learn, a new tactic or a new piece of equipment. So I can never master it in the sense that I can learn nothing new because there's always something new.
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Permalink Reply by Capt.Alex Arnold on
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WOW this thing has got some legs!!! I am new to "the nation" but not emergency services. I have read all the posts (wow again), and I would like to have a couple of dimes in the pot. I have been a captain for just over 2 years now. I like to believe that my crew has confidence in my leadership abilities. I don't have a big fancy college degree. I do have (like most of us in this service) alot of "wall paper". Yes, experience is essential to a leadership, but.... my grandfather taught me to pay close attention to others mistakes. I always wondered why he would say this. (he spent 40 years in fire/rescue) I would sometimes ask him what he would mean by that. He would just tell me it is easier to avoid learning the hard way, when someone else already has. But back to that in the future.
I come from a small district in NE Washington State. If you wanna know about us goto www.pofd3.org. Here the chief is HIRED by or fire commissioners. All line officers must of course meet certain criteria but the biggest thing is that they must pass a three part in house testing process. The test is:
1) a 1 on 1 verbal exam with the chief. This consists of situational awareness and resources managment.
2) written exam
3) this is the biggy! A panel of local residents and fellow peers selected by the chief and the commissioners does a table top with the candidates. This table top consists of questions and scenarios ranging handling harassment issues in both the community and in-house, community PR stuff, and personal goals that we seee the future of fire/rescue in POFD 3.
This has worked out very well here. This election for appointment and what not sounds good but to me it sounds like a receipe for possible disaster. It does not really matter what the age.
Now I saw a lot of "posturing" by some younger FF's through out this discussion. I have also seem some younger FFs openly admit to the limitation. I respect both and you and only you can do what is right for your house and your fellow teams. Fire service is a service that is based on tradition and pride. This is good for us all to know and embrace,but. Yes I have a but, we need to also be able to accept and respaect change to our service. Hey I'm quickly finding myself has that guy that is over that young persons shoulder teaching rather than doing so much. I have come to appreciate this role. I realize that if I don't help with teaching the next generation then old traditions and maybe even newe ones may be lost.
I have alway stressed 2 things to the crew in the house 1, a)it's not our emergency,keep it that way. And b) everyone goes home. These are two things that I feel many leaders in this service share. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves and those around us of this though. Pride is something that we all share...some more then others but we share it or we wouldn't be in it.
Now back to my grandad. I remember when I called him to ask him what he thought of me testing for the capt. position. We had a very good and long talk. I took alot away from it, but this stuck with me the most. He said that he is completely confident in my abilities to lead, and make the right choice. But the thing that stuck with me the most was when he said," when you feel like you can go up to the door, ring the bell, and tell one of your FF's families that they are not coming home because of a decision you made, then you well be a good leader of men in this service." At first I was astonished that my grandfather would assume that I would kill one of my FFs. then I thought and thought about it. He wasn't saying that I would intentionally kill someone but a decision I make can. This isn't quality control at a pickle factory we do. We put our lives on the line to save others.
So the next time you think your ready for a leadership role ask yourself that question. Can I preform the necessary job to deal with consequences of a bad decision. Remember we build heroes in this service not victims!!
Be safe, be proud, learn something new today!
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Permalink Reply by firefighter1and2 on
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I dont like young chiefs just cause of the experience issue---there is a young chief in neighboring fire dept just trying to take every run possible even in our township----that chief will probably get his clocked cleaned sooner or later.
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My Dad gave me alot of the same talk yor Grandfather gave you, a nieboring Chief who has taken me in also did. Their right, I've had two Firefighters injured under my watch and one civilian fatality. The hardest thing is faceing their familys to answer for it, although I was lucky in that both firefighters where injured by slipping and falling while fighting fires in the middle of winter. Even on something as simple as a falling on ice and twisting an ankle which was the second time, the first was a firefighter lost footing on a hill and hit his shoulder on an old broken 4X4 post. The familys still wanted an answer, accident never will do they want how, why and what's being done to prevent it from happening again and why it wasn't done before this. For the fatal fire what was harder then faceing the family was, faceing my fellow firefighters to tell them a week later that they took here off of life suport and she was gone. They broke their backs to get her out and revive her, to look them in the eyes and see their feelings that's something that you'll remember for life. All because the owner of the appartment complex is to cheep to install proper fire alarms and no one called for over half an hour.
I understand what your Grandfather told you, but I also feel and this is plainly my own feelings. That no one no matter how experianced or how old is truely ready to walk up to that door. But he is right, your going to have to answer to them and not only them but also your Brother firemen and friends. It'll never be easy, if it does theirs something wrong.
For your saying about teaching over the shoulder, thank you. It's one of best ways for us younger firefighters to learn, shure we can go read books and we can take all kinds of classes. But when the old guy's say hey when I was a youngster I walked into a flash over this is what it felt like and what happened, now when I walk up to the same I can think gee conditions are going down the drain. I need to vent the roof and I need to get water in there to cool it from outside, not I'm in this room and now everythings orange and I feel like I'm on fire what's up. Books can teach you so much, classes and crawling around in fake smoke can take you farther, working with the old guys and getting their experiances takes you much farther and doing it in real life ties it all together. I'm a very avid reader and have taken more classes then most in my area, but all that peice of paper says is that I was there the alloted time. I've learned more sitting around the stations bsing with the old guys and watching them work and working with them and also asking questions, but I've learned more from the old guys than any where else and have aslo learned from ther mistakes.
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There is a former assistant chief who, at age 32, had his "clock cleaned" and wound up doing time!
If you want to read for yourself what happens when the inexperienced are put into leadership roles, just google "Lairdsville".
Now; it not an indictment of everyone that is young, but it demonstrates how kids-yes, kids-THINK that they are ready to lead, when in fact, they are not. And someone dies.
If you're interested in my take on the "Lairdsville" Incident, let me know. I wrote an article on it.
It's three parts because of its length.
I might post it here on the anniversary of the death of Bradley Golden on Sept. 25, 2001.
I will never forget it and I will never forget Firefighter Bradley Golden.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Ryan on
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In my department there a quite a few of young officers (Capts & Lt's.) from ages 21-34 y/o. and we all do a great job, on a training, paperwork, and on calls. Yes they may not have the same experience that a guy has who has been around for 30+ years, but these guys still know what they're doing and do it well and are very efficient. Personally I would put the age situation aside as a whole and look at each individual separately that wants to move into an officer position, and see if they can fulfill the position they want. I do agree that all the certifications someone has does not necessarily make them a good person for the job, but it’s possible. A good officer will have both a good knowledge and experience of the fire dept.
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Ryan:
I had an old cigar-chompin' jake tell that the measure of a firefighter isn't in years, but what's between the ears!
I don't know why, but things like that just stick with me.
TCSS.
Art
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