Comments - Are Your Ears Burning? - PPE advances aren’t to blame for poor risk assessment & decision-making - My Firefighter Nation2024-03-19T09:04:25Zhttps://my.firefighternation.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=889755%3ABlogPost%3A3521968&xn_auth=noA lot of good points, Tim fir…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-04-10:889755:Comment:38192462009-04-10T03:00:51.323ZChris Millerhttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/ChrisMiller68
A lot of good points, Tim first off good point about reading smoke, Dodson now states in his programs that firefighters should learn to see heat rather than feel heat.<br />
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As Paul pointed out fires reach flashover sooner now. Firefighters 25 years ago did not see the amount of flashovers that occur today. High heat release rates from synthetic fuel packages, energy efficient buildings that hold heat, fuels with low mass to surface area ratios all make the fire environment a more dangerous place.…
A lot of good points, Tim first off good point about reading smoke, Dodson now states in his programs that firefighters should learn to see heat rather than feel heat.<br />
<br />
As Paul pointed out fires reach flashover sooner now. Firefighters 25 years ago did not see the amount of flashovers that occur today. High heat release rates from synthetic fuel packages, energy efficient buildings that hold heat, fuels with low mass to surface area ratios all make the fire environment a more dangerous place. The only way to combat it is to train to understand it.<br />
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Keep up the good work Tim, and look me up when you are in town in May. As one of the new old guys, 2…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-03-04:889755:Comment:35337872009-03-04T03:51:24.340ZPaul Younghttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/PaulYoung
As one of the new old guys, 21+ years, I believe in hoods. The fires we are fighting these days are hotter and faster burning, read reaching flashover faster than in "the old days". The new generation gear does let us get in deeper and without proper risk management and failure to read the smoke/building, that is what is getting us in trouble.
As one of the new old guys, 21+ years, I believe in hoods. The fires we are fighting these days are hotter and faster burning, read reaching flashover faster than in "the old days". The new generation gear does let us get in deeper and without proper risk management and failure to read the smoke/building, that is what is getting us in trouble. Ben:
I won't argue we have a…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-03-03:889755:Comment:35309052009-03-03T13:06:25.475ZTimothy Sendelbachhttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/TimSendelbach
Ben:<br />
<br />
I won't argue we have a long way to go in area of heat release. Your closing comment reflects the need for continued research in the area of PPE. Great post - thank you!<br />
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Lutan1:<br />
<br />
Great points - SLOW DOWN!!! If we don't assess the environment, we likely won't understand it and will eventually become and element of it. Great post thanks!!!<br />
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FETC:<br />
<br />
I agree, but I also disagree. Everything needs to have a training component (that's a point of the obvious), but at some point folks have to be…
Ben:<br />
<br />
I won't argue we have a long way to go in area of heat release. Your closing comment reflects the need for continued research in the area of PPE. Great post - thank you!<br />
<br />
Lutan1:<br />
<br />
Great points - SLOW DOWN!!! If we don't assess the environment, we likely won't understand it and will eventually become and element of it. Great post thanks!!!<br />
<br />
FETC:<br />
<br />
I agree, but I also disagree. Everything needs to have a training component (that's a point of the obvious), but at some point folks have to be held accountable to common sense. Tenability and viability are the two terms that need to be shared and understood by all (work and enter tenable spaces for viable patients/victims).<br />
<br />
Heat is not the only training aspect that needs to be addressed, we need to address the issue of reading the smoke conditions from the street. As soon as our feet hit the street we need to take a momentary pause, read the conditions and then deploy.<br />
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Again, great post - thanks!!!<br />
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Mary Ellen:<br />
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Thanks for your post - my response to your lightweight building construction request:<br />
<br />
Time/Distance/Shielding<br />
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Don't spend much <b><i>"time"</i></b> in 'em, under 'em or around 'em.<br />
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Position yourself at a <b><i>"distance"</i></b> and prepare for collapse.<br />
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<i><b><i>"Shield"</i></b></i> yourself from the debris when they fall.<br />
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Thanks again for your post!<br />
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Tom:<br />
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Whatever you do, DON'T GIVE UP, it's worth the fight. Please feel free to use the posted info as you see fit. Best of luck brother - keep up the good fight!<br />
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Art:<br />
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Well said - these will be lessons learned the hard way (and a lifetime of scars to prove it).<br />
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Thanks for the post!!!<br />
<br />
TESendelbach<br />
<i>Editor-in-Chief</i><br />
FireRescue Magazine Tim:
Risk assessment or the l…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-03-02:889755:Comment:35282992009-03-02T20:51:24.202ZArt "ChiefReason" Goodrichhttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/xchief22
Tim:<br />
Risk assessment or the lack thereof has become a hot topic.<br />
Many excuses are being proffered and runs the gamut.<br />
"Risk assessment takes too long and is a waste of time anyway" is one reply that I got.<br />
"Under qualified instructors are teaching inadequate risk assessment skills" is another.<br />
If the risk assessment is a no-go interior, they "are goin' in anyway, cause someone MIGHT be in there".<br />
"Sparky the Fire Dog ate our risk assessment plan, but that's OK because the LT says he could ****…
Tim:<br />
Risk assessment or the lack thereof has become a hot topic.<br />
Many excuses are being proffered and runs the gamut.<br />
"Risk assessment takes too long and is a waste of time anyway" is one reply that I got.<br />
"Under qualified instructors are teaching inadequate risk assessment skills" is another.<br />
If the risk assessment is a no-go interior, they "are goin' in anyway, cause someone MIGHT be in there".<br />
"Sparky the Fire Dog ate our risk assessment plan, but that's OK because the LT says he could **** one out that would be better than the chief's".<br />
2009 is suppose to be the break out year in the fire service for personal safety.<br />
I know that I am tired of all of the excuses. We need commitment and personal responsibility to achieve any minor successes and then build upon those.<br />
But, we make it too easy for the pessimists to poison our system with their negative attitudes that weakens our processes to the point that they are ineffective.<br />
We need to think positive and then do it positively.<br />
And for those who don't want to wear hoods?<br />
You will only hear the sound of your ears burning off but ONCE!<br />
Get use to saying "HUH?"<br />
TCSS.<br />
Art On another side-topic....Tim.…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-03-02:889755:Comment:35264742009-03-02T05:00:05.692ZMary Ellen Sheahttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/MaryEllenShea
On another side-topic....Tim....I'd like to see you address the lightweight (truss) construction issue.
On another side-topic....Tim....I'd like to see you address the lightweight (truss) construction issue. Four words: You can't fix stu…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-03-02:889755:Comment:35264682009-03-02T04:57:48.387ZMary Ellen Sheahttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/MaryEllenShea
Four words: You can't fix stupid.<br />
<br />
But I give you props for trying.
Four words: You can't fix stupid.<br />
<br />
But I give you props for trying. Tim,
I have spoken allot abo…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-03-01:889755:Comment:35221942009-03-01T02:04:21.400ZFETChttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/Bill72
Tim,<br />
<br />
I have spoken allot about this subject as well. The problem is "lack of training" in the use of our fully ecapsulated ensemble in real thermal insult conditions. The older (seasoned veterans) find it difficult to reformulate what they feel for heat through the newer PPE protection - or they are simply short minded over the fact that it "can be done" with the newer protection as compared to just reducing the ensemble.<br />
<br />
Now as far as newer firefighters, who do not know what rubber coats,…
Tim,<br />
<br />
I have spoken allot about this subject as well. The problem is "lack of training" in the use of our fully ecapsulated ensemble in real thermal insult conditions. The older (seasoned veterans) find it difficult to reformulate what they feel for heat through the newer PPE protection - or they are simply short minded over the fact that it "can be done" with the newer protection as compared to just reducing the ensemble.<br />
<br />
Now as far as newer firefighters, who do not know what rubber coats, 3/4 hip boots, tin hats and no hoodies are..... they are only experienced to the level in which their Firefighter 1 and 2 allowed them to be. Add in the fact that most probies are only experienced to the new NFPA 1403 standard of "hay and pallets" in a pre-engineered concrete building that might (I repeat might see 500 degrees) and you now have a serious liability when they step off the truck and are expected to fight the red devil on his realistic BTU terms...<br />
<br />
In my opinion, in all goes back to "realistic" thermal insult recognition. My guys have heard me preach it over and over. Being exposed repeatedly to thermal insult, with positive recognition of the actual interior temperatures; having the instructor call out the interior temperatures, so the brother can relate what he is actually feeling at the time of the call. Now that is realistic training.<br />
<br />
Not fake smoke, wax paper, and silly obstacle courses erected in the apparatus bay and expect the firefighter to know what the limitations are of his or her PPE...<br />
<br />
FETC Risk assess, risk assess, ris…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-03-01:889755:Comment:35221412009-03-01T01:53:58.988Zlutan1https://my.firefighternation.com/profile/lutan1
Risk assess, risk assess, risk assess!<br />
<br />
The mentality that we <i><b>MUST</b></i> go interior on every fire has to change.<br />
<br />
We must risk assess every scene and develop situational awareness, along with improved knowledge of construction types.<br />
<br />
I saw a motto/mantra recently that was used in the education about the hazards of H2S- Education, Detection, Protection.<br />
<br />
The same can easily be adpated to fire fighting-<br />
<b>Education</b>- educate members on building construction, risk assessments,…
Risk assess, risk assess, risk assess!<br />
<br />
The mentality that we <i><b>MUST</b></i> go interior on every fire has to change.<br />
<br />
We must risk assess every scene and develop situational awareness, along with improved knowledge of construction types.<br />
<br />
I saw a motto/mantra recently that was used in the education about the hazards of H2S- Education, Detection, Protection.<br />
<br />
The same can easily be adpated to fire fighting-<br />
<b>Education</b>- educate members on building construction, risk assessments, situational awareness, hydration, etc<br />
<br />
<b>Detection</b>- increased situational awareness and risk assessments will lessen (not remove) the likelihood of firefighters becoming trapped or injured, or putting themselves into even more dangerous situations.<br />
<br />
<b>Protection</b>- with increased education and protection, we will protect ourselves. Back in the day, the gear was…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2009-03-01:889755:Comment:35220482009-03-01T01:34:55.315ZBen Wallerhttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/BenWaller
Back in the day, the gear was primarily designed to protect us from water, not from fire.<br />
Structures were more solid, we had more manpower so we could multitask the attack, and we had real ventilation or we weren't able to go very far inside.<br />
<br />
It's not the gear that's killing us in fires...it's the structures, the fuels, and the lack of manpower.<br />
<br />
On the other hand, the new gear doesn't shed body heat as efficiently as the old gear, and we wear it for a lot of non-firefighting tasks like…
Back in the day, the gear was primarily designed to protect us from water, not from fire.<br />
Structures were more solid, we had more manpower so we could multitask the attack, and we had real ventilation or we weren't able to go very far inside.<br />
<br />
It's not the gear that's killing us in fires...it's the structures, the fuels, and the lack of manpower.<br />
<br />
On the other hand, the new gear doesn't shed body heat as efficiently as the old gear, and we wear it for a lot of non-firefighting tasks like extrication. Maybe the gear is contributing to killing us, but just not in the same way as some of us might think.