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Why the TN home allowed to burn to the ground was an embarrassment to the Fire Service.
A lot has been said about the events that unfolded regarding a home that was allowed to burn to the ground in TN. One of the main arguments (in fact, the only valid argument) criticizing the homeowner was that he didn't pay the $75 Fee required by the fire department prior to the fire, as the response was outside of the regular district boundary required payment. Folks living outside of the boundary don't pay taxes that support the fire department, so a fee was implemented to offset the response. They all knew it too. OK Let's take a look at that...............
First....How does $75 dollars pay for an engine crew, let alone multiple crews to respond to a fire? Ans: It doesn't. But since they can't levy the true costs of a single response on to a homeowner (did you know that trying to charge for suppression efforts AFTER the incident is next to impossible based on the law?), they have to utilize a reasonable fee structure that requires some "skin" in the game, yet collectively, it covers expenses associated with fire suppression.
This is a basic insurance method of covering costs, in that, $75 won't pay for a response, but if 100 homeowners pay, and say there's only 2 fire calls per year in the area, the department receives $7500 for the two calls. (The 2 calls is just an example, for all you fact freaks, since I don't know how many times this particular FD responded out of district, nor do I know how many have paid the fee)
The way car insurance works (in case you forgot) is that if you wreck your car, and don't have insurance, you have to pay your own expenses. Sounds good so far? And you can't pay AFTER the fact to get coverage...YEAH. In fact, in some states, it's ILLEGAL to NOT have CAR insurance to protect other drivers... (stay with me here).................but if that uninsured car is on fire in the middle of the road, outside or inside the district boundary........the FD puts it out....right?
Now, if someone is in the car...well, that makes all the sense in the world. But if I didn't pay my fire taxes (say I live out of state and I'm sightseeing in beautiful TN), nor did I pay my car insurance (yeah...I'm a risk taker), but the car is on fire, they put it out...pat each other on the back, and then go have a cold one at the local watering hole and talk about the look on the guys face when his house burned to the ground.
But wait.....If my car's leaking gas as a result of an accident................here comes Haz Mat. Maybe I had some chemicals in the trunk (yeah...I moon light for a company trying to take over UPS's business..LOL), and it creates a cloud of methyl-ethyl bad stuff, and traffic has to be shut down, an area evacuated, detection gear, decontamination, the works... (that dang MSDS wasn't handy, and the bump on my head made my memory of what chemicals I had fuzzy), and you've got yourself a real honest to goodness S%#T-fest on your hands. How much does that cost tax payers? (I'm sure the FACTS Geeks will have a reasonable answer for this one).
So, let me get this straight...........you can cause one heck of an incident, costing tax payers a boat-load of money, shutting down a road, endangering residents, if it involves your car. But if your house catches on fire, spewing embers, causing spot fires, igniting stuff on fire that has to be extinguished, the "seat of the fire" is allowed to burn, with the potential to create more devastation, (and you've set a president by allowing a homeowner to pay a fee AFTER the fire was put out on prior incidents to prevent the aforementioned issues), but you say....naw....not this time.....you just let the home burn?
Now answer me this: If I was a neighbor, and I paid my $75, and I live a few houses away, how am I protected exactly? The unpaid homeowners home is going up in smoke, spewing a column of smoke and fire, and the engine crew arrives and breaks out the popcorn. The next thing I know, my wood shingle roof has gone..poof...and is on fire. They put the popcorn down, spray some water on my house. But dang... one of the embers got into the attic....and poof...their goes my house. Is there any MORAL responsibility on behalf of the department to have put the original fire out?
Of course, this particular department has allowed folks to pay AFTER THE FACT. It had something to to with not letting one structure fire turn into a whole neighborhood disaster (former fire chief's thinking at the time, but he's long gone). But can you honestly tell me, if that house on fire was surrounded by homes on three sides, that it wouldn't have been tactically prudent to put out the main fire if it was a eminent threat to the paid subscribers? So this poor guy's home burns down because they could AFFORD to let it burn based on geography?
So let me get this straight; You can pay the fee before the home burns and get protection. You can buy it after the home burns to the ground and get protection (rekindle anyone). But for the time it's on fire........NO DEAL?
Well boys and girls, there's the LETTER of the law, and the SPIRIT of the law. There's MORALITY, COMPASSION, ETHICS and PROFESSIONALISM. Regardless if the fee was paid was one second prior, or one second after the fire, it should have been extinguished, because its a THREAT to the paying customers (But not in this case...right FACT Geeks?)It's an area they had to respond to protect other homes. Put out the first fire to prevent anything else form happening. If you can come close to a moral argument as to why I'm wrong, well....I'm sure you'll tell me. A sad day indeed.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Karr Quintero on
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39535911
read this -
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Herb,
The Fire Chief has no say over the way the system was set up. He is told by the county commissioners that he can charge a subscription fee to their county residents. The decision makers are the "county representatives" who designed and approved the pay for service system.
The Fire Chief is one of the firefighters for who you say, you don't have a problem with. You see, he works for the City of South Fulton's City Manager and Mayor. for whom tells him how to run a fire department that has been asked to contract for outside district fire services.
If your boss at whatever job you do, decided to give away free product, eventually everyone would not purchase the products knowing the guy is so generous that he will give it away anyway. Now in the meantime, you are pink slipped because well out of his kind, empathetic generousity, he can't afford to pay the worker's salary. Bet your ass you would be pissed if he laid you off in this economic time.
Why lay the moral obligation bullshit on us or the fire chief? When the homeowner is taking absolutely no responsibility for any of his dumbass actions to include not paying for service. This guy said he would pay when used? I would bet nobody from the county that luckily didn't need the service, came in last year and said, "Hey guys I didn't use you guys last year but here is my $75 bucks for the protection" NOBODY DOES THAT. The homeowner gambled and he lost. He was hoping for free protection and pay if needed. Thats not the system regardless of what happened in the past.
Hey why don't you try that with your car insurance? How about your home mortgage company? No, because they will tell you "no pay, no protection or place to live". This is all business and has nothing to do with moral obligation, civil rights or what not.
The City of South Fulton is offering a service to an area that they have no duty to act in. You decide to live in the county that has no fire department at all, decide not pay for services, you shouldn't get any service then. Better yet how about go in the opposite direction, what if they the city, charged a homeowner $10,000 for suppression efforts after a fire. You won't see a dime of that either... the guy lost everything and now needs cash to survive.
The Fire Chief has asked the county to charge everyone in the county a fire tax on their property so everyone has protection. The county representatives refuse to force people to pay for something (fire protection) in a property tax when they can have a choice on a subscription. They like it so much that they told the city FD to charge more because of increased overhead for the service.
Wanna be pissed, go whine to a county representative who set up this system, because the fire chief is just a pawn following the rules of engagement given to him.
Enough said.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Herb, when you said "You can't muster up the courage to say what happened in TN was wrong, because your world is black and white. But the world is not that way. I'll try to explain why:" that's bogus.
That's wishful thinking. It has no basis in fact. What happened in Tennessee was exactly what the homeowner paid for - no fire protection for his home.
The system that South Fulton runs with their subscription district in Obion County is what is in place there. If your department operates another type of system, it's pretty arrogant for you to claim that people who don't do it your way are wrong.
If the fire department had extinguished the fire, it would have sent the message that NO ON need pay the subscription fee from then on, until they had a fire.
That would drain 3/4 million dollars per year from the budget of a small, underfunded department from a town of 2,500 people that is already subsidizing a county hhat has over 30,000 residents.
Sorry, your sense of black and white is as mistaken as your lack of understanding about the economics of the local fire protection.
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Not true, Herb. It's not the current fire chief's fault that the previous occupant of his office didn't enforce the rules during the prior administration.
It's the homeowner's fault for being sloppy and having the fire in the first place, it's the homeowner's fault again for intentionally being a cheapskate and not paying his subscription fee, and it's the homeowner's insurance company's fault for writing him fire insurance without proof of a fire subscription. It's also the previous chief's fault if he didn't enforce the rules, and that could have a lot to do with why he's not still the chief.
Jack has asked you to stop the speculative "what if's" and stick to the facts more than once.
Speculation has no place in this discussion, and when you interject it, you're telling us that you really don't care about the facts.
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There's no way any responsible fire chief is going to use a fire incident for live fire training.
For starters, that would be a blatant violation of several NFPA 1403 requirements for live fire training.
It would also muddy the waters on the very real funding problems that both South Fulton and Obion County have. That might be your aim, but it's certainly not theirs.
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Two problems there, Herb.
First - you watch MSNBC.
Second - The City of South Fulton can't afford your non-resident, non-contributing compassion.
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Actually, FETC, the South Fulton Fire Department acted in a most moral and ethical way.
They didn't let someone who tried to cheat the system get away with it when everyone else pays their fair share as it is defined locally.
Herb's stance here is actually the immoral one. He wants to make the rest of the community subsidize the wrondoer who tried to cheat the system. His compassion should be for the people who pay their fair share, not for the freeloader who got unlucky.
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Triple J, mandatory funding won't work in this case. The county simply doesn't have the population to be able to afford a fire department that can provide the same level of service that they get with the subscription service from South Fulton.
Implementing your solution would result in a rash of forclosures, less tax base than what they have now, and STILL no county fire department.
When you say "...subscription Fire Departments went out with horse-drawn fire engines." in a topic about one that charges subscriptions in 2010, I hope you realize how ironic and inaccurate that statement really is.
Example: Rural/Metro, a private corporation, operates subscription-based fire services in several states, including in the 3rd-largest Tennessee county, Knox County with a population well into 6 figures.
Implementing your idea in Obion County wouldn't create a county fire department, and no county council that spends that kind of money would survive the next election. Forcing unaffordable services on other people because it makes you comfortable just doesn't cut it.
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Hypothetical and not pertinent to the discussion.
Herb, as Jack has asked you several times, can't you stick to the FACTS?
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I totally agree. We offer Paramedic services to surrounding smaller communities. It cost money to train, equip and staff the rig. We charge a fee for that trained medic, his tools and equipment to respond to your community and possibly save your life. If the town who needs ALS intervention for a resident refuses to pay for our standby service fee, guess what? They don't get a Paramedic in a fly car to come.
How is this any different? It isn't because the fire department has obligation whether morally, ethically, or financially to respond and provide services for free outside of their community or district.
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Permalink Reply by Herb Genelly III on
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You are a funny dude. I guess all the time I spent as a Fire Investigator was in my imagination. In case you forgot some basics: when a Fire occurs, the FD takes legal possession of the home, until such time as the fire is completely extinguished, and the potential threat to the community is mitigated. If Arson is suspected, the FD has had possession, constituting the beginning of the Chain of Evidence.
If a fire occurred, and it was put out........everyone goes home.........and then they start to talking..........hey..did you see the gas can on the property? Why no........let's go back and see..........well.............too late. You, as a former chief should know better on this subject. And water was never my main complaint. Overhaul, and removal of contents was.
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