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When Do You Run Out Of Resources?
I was reading about the large amount of fires in Detriot recently and how some incidents had to wait 90 minutes for an engine. I don't but maybe I'm spoiled living in an area with 5 stations within 5 mins and 20 within 15 and 100 within 30 minutes.
As I look at a map of the Detroit metro area its hard to beleive that other cities or towns would not have responded into the city. I also read that this is the first time in 40 yrs Mutual Aid was requested. Hasn't 9-11 taught us anything. Chicago had a huge drill recently to verify communications and get EVERYONE on the same page.
We as emergency responders have a responsibilty to make sure we can keep our citizens safe. Case in point - Conshocken has a HUGEMONGUS fire couple of years ago. Several Del and NJ companies responded for cover ups. Easily a 45 min ride. I really don't se anyone saying "I don't want to travel miles to fight a fire or go to a new fire house" We get a larger response when we go to PA or NJ then to neighboring companies.
But back to the topic. There should never be a fire when no one responds. I might be wrong for pointing the finger at Detroit. I'm sure thier a bunch of great fireifghters and officers. But we need to learn from thier mistake. No one department can handle everything in thier district....NONE. NYC showed it, LA shows it and now detroit showed it. There is no embarassment in calling for help. If I could call for an additinal engine while cutting grass I would. Not calling for sufficent help and burning down a house. buiilding or half the city is embarassing.
But we need to be prepared. What happens after you use up your run card. Is it in the dispatchers hands? Where do you go after ALL the departments in your area have been called. How will you communicate?
So I guess I answered my own question...NEVER, As long as there is a firehouse with equipment and members somewhere in the country you will never run out of resources. Call them, use them.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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I often feel like people take the "it's not my job" attitude or in our case "it's not my state or my district or my problem."
Heather, from an outsider, it appears to be the total opposite- "this IS my area and no one will come in to assist".
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Permalink Reply by Fabulous Heather Days of Summer on
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maybe both are true (this is my area - stay out) and don't ask for my damn help (cause I ain't coming) and I certainly am not offering to help
state lines are drawn
county lines
town lines or district lines
... drawn lines have been taken too far to the point where many forget the point - help the masses
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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In Detroit's case, they did use mutual aid - lots of it.
They had a widespread event that overwhelmed not only their city resources, but the availability and travel times of the mutual aid companies.
When I hear "you should NEVER run out of resources", I think that's a disconnect from reality, especially in the short term.
San Fransisco ran out of resources during the Loma Prieta earthquake.
Miami ran out of resources in the Hurricane Andrew aftermath.
Charleson ran out of resources in the Hurricane Hugo aftermath.
An entire region ran out of resources during the December 11, 1990 fog pileups on I-75.
New Orleans ran out of resources during Hurricane Katrina.
There is always the potential for an event so big and/or widespread that it will run the local area - or even the region - out of resources, at least in the short term.
That's why FEMA tells everyone to be prepared to survive on your own for at least 72 hours following any major disaster.
Yes, you can eventually get the resources you need, but the key word is "eventually". Note that all of the Detroit fires have been extinguished, and most of them were in abandoned structures that had little or no actual value.
From another perspective, every one of the unoccupied houses that burned in Detroit this week is one less house in which a Detroit firefighter will be injured or killed in the future.
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Permalink Reply by M.J. 6821 on
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Or you have the departments that say yeah we will come and play but we are doing it our way and you cant tell us any different.
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There are often geographical barriers that isolate some areas from help.
In my case, I work on a barrier island with a single bridge as the only road access.
We have one neighboring department for immediate mutual iad. We call for them whenever we need help, and they are wonderful about providing said help. We return the favor whenever it is requested.
However, if we need more mutual aid than our one close neighbor can provide, we're going to wait a long time for it.
The same goes for some of the departments in the rural west, where the closest backup can come from far, far away, in the geographically isolated towns in Alaska and Hawaii, etc.
The lack of mutual aid isn't always a failure to use available mutual aid. Sometimes it simply isn't available, or isn't available in sufficient numbers or time to make a real difference in the outcome.
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Permalink Reply by Dave Williams on
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If you are referring to my statement about never running out of resources, and read through my post, I had hoped to convey that even though a given agency may not possess sufficient resources to handle every possible incident, planning should have already occurred pre-incident to determine where the required resources will be obtained. We have taken what some would call extreme steps to locate resources of common types for our district. Our assignments include engines, trucks, tankers from at least three counties along with arff units from around the region (up to 35-40 miles away). Our county and state emergency planning agencies have additional resource inventory listings. Then there is the fed response with pre-positioned equipment caches, etc. You state that individual agencies (SF, Miami,etc) ran out of resources, well yes, that is expected under extreme circumstances. Hence the need to plan for those extreme incidents and determine where the needed resources are and how you will obtain them when needed. We've run the "pile up on the interstate" here also (I-95) where agencies from Delaware to Balt City responded. We operate with two, three and at times four counties (or the city) on the same incident regularly. As others stated on here, barriers need to be broken, attitudes and agendas dropped at the door. Plan for the unimaginable and you will be able to handle, as well as can be expected, what comes your way. Be safe!!
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Permalink Reply by Roy Walker on
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The key is to preplan and spell out what is expected in mutual aid. If the biggest department can afford it with an application of mutual aide funds to help. They maybe able to equip a command vehicle with exta radios to provide communication. Preplan means future purchases should be made so mutual aid will develop interoperatability with in it self . Training with mutual aide will put us all on the same page. Mutual aide is great but it doesn't just happen.
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That's fine for your department, but your situation is much different than Detroit's. Detroit has 66 fire companies, 8 of which were browned out for the day. That left them 58 fire companies to respond to 85 fires that occurred nearly simultaneously.
That means that they sent single engine companies to around half their fires, (CNN video) since their truck and rescue (squad) companies don't have pumps or water. I watched video of single engine companies fighting group fires with two, three, or four residences on fire and not being able to do anything but protect exposures. The link I enclosed shows a single engine and a single truck fighting a fully-involved house with two exposures going. A phone call to FEMA isn't going to help in that situation.
The other half of their fires had NO DFD resources to respond. They used mutual aid where they had it, but remember that half of their city fronts on Lake St. Clair or Lake Erie or the international border with Canada. That severly limits the mutual aid that is immediately available.
Detroit used mutual aid and the fires were all extinguished. No fatalities were reported. The fires were extinguished before any state or federal resources could even have been mobilized.
No add the fact that the high winds, power line-induced fires, and dry conditions affected their neighbors, and that limited the amount of mutual aid their neighbors could send.
The bottom line is that Detroit FD and their mutual aid companies handled a situation that was unique, they did it with limited resources, and they did it more rapidly than any large plan could have acquired those resources.
Planning is fine. Realistic planning is much better. What you discuss is fine, but it's an apples-and-oranges solution to the problem Detroit had on 10/7/10.
Then there's the funding issue. Why should the neighboring jurisdictions be expected to pay taxes to protect Detroit? This is becoming a big issue, particularly in the Rust Belt cities that are experiencing urban flight. They have increasing hazards and a diminishing tax base. When their neighbors have the same problems, why should those neighbors be expected to spend their tax dollars to protect large swaths of no-value property in Detroit?
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Detroit doesn't have the money to even fund their existing fire and EMS. They are lucky if they have enough ambulances in running order to handle their call volume. They have 8 to 12 companies browned out at any given time. They have disbanded fire companies and closed fire stations in a rolling tide of retrenchment that has lasted for decades.
A command van isn't going to make a noticable dent in the problems Detroit has, let alone the situation they had on Sep. 7.
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More information on the Detroit Fire Department and their decades of retenchment:
Disbanded Detroit Fire Companies
Engine 3 – 1976
Engine 4 – 1976
Engine 6 – 1994
Engine 7 – 1979
Engine 11 – 1975
Engine 12 – 1976
Engine 13 – 1976
Engine 22 – 1983
Engine 36/Tac 2 – 1991
Engine 43 – 1983
Engine 45 – 1983
Snorkel 1 – 1981
Ladder 3 – 1992
Ladder 5 – 1976
Ladder 9 – 1992
Ladder 11 – 1992
Ladder 12 – 1982
Ladder 15 – 1980
Squad 7 (to re-establish Squad 1) – 1980
Squad 8 – 1978
Squad 9 – 1978
That’s 11 engine companies, 7 ladder companies, and three squad (heavy rescues) disbanded in the past 35 years.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Ben I agree...those that say you should never run out obviously haven't been there and walked a mile in our boots....I have yet to see a situation that you had too much help....if the proverbial human excrement striked the oscillating blades there isn't enough help in the world....Look at Katrina....there was an entire Nation and even that wasn't enough.....questions.....?
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Ben I wasn't referring to Detroit's situation I have no idea how something as bad as that can be fixed and I have the utmost respect for them. I never meant a command van made any difference only that it could be equipped with extra radios to bring mutual aide to gether on communications. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
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