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Concealed Carry and fires
Maybe an odd question, but the other day I was looking at sub-compact pistols and revolvers for concealed carry (yes, I have the necessary training and permit), and the thought crossed my mind... do you think there could be potential problems with concealed carry and working a fire? In theory, your PPE should protect your firearm from thermal exposure just like it does you, but we don't live in that neat little town called Theory.
And the more I think about it, I'm thinking this question more affects the volunteers than full time FF's; a full-time knows when he's on duty, and even if he carries while off-duty, once he gets to the station (or leaves home for the station), he can remove his holster. But for a volunteer, you never know when you're going to get paged. Do you leave the gun on you, slip it out of the holster and leave in your (locked) vehicle, drop it in the station when you grab your gear....
These are the kinds of things I think about on long drives... the "what-ifs" of life.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Good non-answer...
Still the 24/7/365 nonsense is just that. Sorry you refuse to face the reality that people who volunteer actually have lives outside the fire department.
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Permalink Reply by Russ Gregston on
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Unlike you sir I don't speak for others I have a great life that I enjoy very much and a hot wife that's the same age as my youngest son. It must be tiring to carry around so much anger and contempt for others happiness
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First of all get off your high horse. YOU posted an ATTACK on anyone that disagreed with your NARROW viewpoint. YOU said anyone that disagreed with YOUR opinion had an antiquated opinion.
And then you posted this little gem:
To anyone who is against the rights I just commented on, maybe you should move to another country for a while where those rights are not guaranteed, and see what its like, or maybe you should seek to demote yourself back to the rank of basic firefighter, and be sent in first into these high crime areas, without protection yourselves...
After reading this gem from you I am glad and feel fortunate that I will NEVER have to rely on a super hero like you to "Protect and Serve" me or anyone that I care about.
By carrying a gun do you think you are less honorable??? If thats the way you feel, then don't bother calling the cops when you need one, since they are apparently less honorable than you are.
Oh, please do show where I said any such thing, And when you can't produce the proof that I said any such utter bull shit I would expect an apology, well unless outright lying is part of your normal operating procedure,
As I stated above, NONE of the FDs I am a member of, career or volunteer, allow carrying of firearms on FD property, or while on an emergency response. That is just the way it is so all of your blather and all of your posturing mean absolutely nothing because an employer and property owner can make those rules whether you like them or not.
I guess you can't read, or perhaps comprehend English since I clearly stated in my first post to you that I am a gun owner. I believe in the Second Ammendment, and the right to carry, in my state open carry is legal without a permit and concealed carry is legal with a permit.
Let me end with this, before you cry about being attacked look at all the attacks you posted in your long rant from earlier...Especially the laughable "move to another country." Man I bout fell out of my chair laughing at that...Right wing extremist much?
Anyways, I hope you had a good Christmas, I did.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Rick,
I would say you did come on here with a condenscending and disrespectful attitude which in turn garnered the reponses you received. There is one thing of having this discussion, but another in the way it gets promoted. On your first response you made the comments regarding the aspect that if one doens't basically agree with your stance that they can leave the country. Rick, quite frankly that is bullshit. The other aspect in which you seem to be missing, or just not acknowledging, is the aspect that the employer does have a say in policy. So regardless if you are a gun advocate, the fact remains the dept, be it career or volly, can and does say if firearms would even be allowed.In this response some things stick out like:
Some folks are against carrying while in bunker gear... I do, and its not that difficult. By the grace of God, maybe I will not have to deploy my firearm in the future as a firefighter or EMT, but can anyone guarantee this wish??? No.
Just because you may carry doesn't mean it is the best option to be widely advocated as you are. You seem to neglect any other issues that have been brought up already, such as using the firearm and so forth. You also seem to be promoting a situation in which one should be "shooting it it out" as opposed to trying not to be in such a situation in the first place.
By carrying a gun do you think you are less honorable??? If thats the way you feel, then don't bother calling the cops when you need one, since they are apparently less honorable than you are. Maybe you should invite your attacker to a tea and counseling session instead. Let me know how that works out for you...
Where and how does this even apply to things Rick? Who said anything about having less honor because they carry? Now you are creating more BS and what does it have to do with calling the cops if needed. Rick, the simple fact remains that police and fire are seperate jobs, regardless of who does them. That means if there is an incident where police are needed, they should be called for....or are you advocating that one carry to handle such a situation themselves??
This is about concealed carry while responding. You can NOT replace any life of a responder! Policies that not only do not promote tactical self defense, and give options to responders, or worse yet, PROHIBIT responders from having those choices are MURDEROUS policies plain and simple, and NO politician can sugar coat it to anything realistically less.
Once again Rick, you are advocating an ultimatum here without any regard to the employers policy. By using your own words, and as others have said, if you can't respect those requirements, then don't do the job, right?
Quite frankly Rick, there are several issues that what you appear to be advocating (arming everyone) doesn't either apply, or you have neglected to answer. There are too many questions and several already posed here that counter your ideals. They are questions like removing bunker gear and so forth, which you haven't talked about. You also have not addressed concerns about other working alongside someone who is armed....such is why you may see such policies in place already.
IMO, given the chain of events in recent weeks with these shootings, we see the advocation of gun laws and bans on one extreme to the advocation of arming everyone on the other extreme. Neither of which truly are the answers and neither of which slows things down enough to look at the larger picture.
I disagree with firefighters carrying while on duty. We can't account for every situation that may come up, but the aspect of "defending oneself" doesn't account for the best situational outcome either. Prior to these shootings, we had an EMS crew that had a gun pulled on them on a call. The crew handled the situation professionally, kept hands in the air, slowly backed out of the home and once outside took cover and cleared the scene. I could only imagine where those that advocate the carrying of a gun would have had the same type of outcome, or would we be seeing some form of shootout.
Rick, your training and so forth is one thing, but let's remember what you are advocating, that training truly is not widespread as concealed carry is. Most firefighters do not have the LE training necessary, so instead of the advocation of arming everyone type of approach, the logical training should be how to avoid such circumstances in the first place.
Quite frankly, I don't care how well armed someone is when it comes to a situation these firefighters faced, they were blindsidedly ambushed. We have seen armed soldiers killed in such situations.
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John...
Excellent post my Brother! I couldn't possibly agree more.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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Copy that. Thought he had been a perpetual troublemaker.
Bottom line for me: I would never feel comfortable with a firearm on the engine, even though I also have a CHL.
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Rick,
You are a propanganda machine. You don't read what anyone posts and then you go off on your ultra-right wing rants. Frankly, I don't give a damn what happens as far as gun control goes in those 40 other countries. You know why? Because it is as relevant to this topic as gun control on the moon.
Of course you won't answer my questions about how to carry with bunker gear because that would require you to use facts instead of your super hero Bull Shit. I still want to know though how you would keep the gun protected, yet readily accessible with turn outs on. I guess you didn't read that I am a gun owner and that I support the 2nd ammendment. I have been a gun owner and shooter for almost 40 years so you can shove your condescending attitude about how much I know about guns.
There is so much I could say in reference to you being a security contractor but I'll take the high road here and let that go. As for your military service I will give you a heart felt thank you.
Oh you are a right winger alright...true blue right winger all the way to the core. OH MY GOD! You didn't really call me a Communist did you? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The final desperate act of a right winger that knows he is being schooled is to throw out the Communist label. Dude, that is so utterly pathetic that you had to go there that all I can do is laugh at you. Nice try labeling me as a Communist, or liberal, or leftist. Too bad it just makes you look even more pathetic. Tell me again how I can be a gun owner defender of the 2nd ammendment and still be this anti-American you are trying to label me as. Sad, that this is all you have left and you can't defend your point of view by answering the questions I posed. Maybe you should just walk away now before you make yourself look anymore foolish.
You opened the door to the attacks with your assinine "antiquated opinions" and your suggestion that anyone that didn't agree with your opinion should move to another country. So, sorry but your wailing about being the victim here doesn't work. Nice try, but it is a usual right wing tactic, throw out attacks and then cry when someone retaliates. Pathetic...
I did try to discuss this logically and all the questions I asked you ignored. You know, like how do you rapidly get a concealed carry pistol out from under turn out gear? Would you wear a holster over your turn outs? Carry the gun in your turn out gear pocket? Have a rifle slung over the MPOs shoulder at the pump panel? A gun rack in the engine? What? You refused to answer any of those questions so tell me again who won't stay on topic?
As for the incident in Webster, tell me how you know more about the incident than those that were there that stated they had no chance and were ambushed? Seriously all the reports I am reading are saying they got out of their vehicles and were shot almost immediately. So tell me what they could have done with no warning that a shooter was there. I am going by the reports of those that were there not your suppositions and theories.
Stop crying about attacks when YOU started the attacks. You want to get back to an intelligent conversation let's go. I gave you numerous questions and all you did was come back with your laughable ultra-right wing, John Birch Society, 1950's, Joe McCarthy, he must be a Communist because he doesn't think the way I do nonsense. Grow up and start dealing with this like a man instead of the whiney little school girl you are sounding like.
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Many folks had, and still have lots of questions they would like answered. I tried to contribute some perspective from a multi-professional position regarding the issues.
Rick, it would be nice if you actually read some of the questions and actually responded to them as opposed to the rants you are going on. Now you are saying that this is all you are going to add to this discussion, much like you did last time, still leaving many questions unanswered. Why have you neglected to respond to actual questions, even going back to the first couple pages of this discussion as opposed to creating more BS that was never said? You have gone on rants and now accuse others for questioning your rants, you neglect to answer questions, yet state you like good conversation. Going off on tangents as you are does not make for good conversation.
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John,
Excellent post. Shorter, more to the point, right on target than my counter rant.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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I trolled back through the responses here and the only thing I could find was a comment, by Don where he referred to a comment by Rick, as 'right wing BS'. So hard to imagine that that one little comment incited that fox news tirade BY Rick towards...well, it seemed towards all of us that disagree with Rick.
Nothing like condescending, nay, deigning to try to explain to us all just how wrong and ignorant we are. yay for Rick.
Also, as far as his lack of response to the issue of how and where you carry in your bunkers, I believe it's because what he wants is for someone, perhaps a 'group of firefighters' that want to be enlightened and are willing to pay him for that enlightenment.
In other words I suspect Rick is really little more than a self-promotional, snake-oil salesman. And as I too pointed out, I do own a few firearms, do have a CCW (for almost 30 yrs), am a huge proponent of the 2nd (1st, 3rd and all of the other) amendments and really couldn't be described as a communist. I am however, highly intolerant of highly intolerant people, bit of a paradox I suppose but there it is.
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Permalink Reply by Derek J Sinesi on
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Rick, I would love to hear the answers to Don's questions. Because the last time i forgot to take my sidearm off on a call, all i managed to do is bruise up my hip.
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Rick,
Don't know who you were referring to when you mentioned the guy who is "uncomfortable with having a firearm aboard the apparatus"...I've carried many places for many years, but draw the line in a few places, some by law and some by choice. At the firehouse and on runs is one of them. No firefighters could have successfully defended themselves from such an ambush as occurred in Webster. Situational awareness is always a valuable tool, but when we respond to fires we shouldn't have to fulfill the role of law enforcement also.
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