Is new safer gear making things more dangerous? - My Firefighter Nation2024-03-29T15:50:08Zhttps://my.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/889755:Topic:466048?commentId=889755%3AComment%3A466946&feed=yes&xn_auth=noKeep the comments coming, we…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-14:889755:Comment:11265162008-08-14T21:24:42.438Zphilhttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/phillipedwards
Keep the comments coming, we need this. We need to open our eyes and see that there is a problem here and it will take all of us to fix it.
Keep the comments coming, we need this. We need to open our eyes and see that there is a problem here and it will take all of us to fix it. Ms Shea, if you listen to the…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-14:889755:Comment:11261972008-08-14T20:34:47.483ZFETChttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/Bill72
Ms Shea, if you listen to the raw audio of the Charleston Fire there are guys in trouble before/during/after the rescue was completed. The trigger was not when the building collapsed 24 minutes later. FF disorientation occurred before/during/after the rescue effort was completed, when the conditions changed dramatically but definately before collapse... they may have remained inside post rescue until the building collapsed but it was NOT by choice. I have listened to the Charleston audio at…
Ms Shea, if you listen to the raw audio of the Charleston Fire there are guys in trouble before/during/after the rescue was completed. The trigger was not when the building collapsed 24 minutes later. FF disorientation occurred before/during/after the rescue effort was completed, when the conditions changed dramatically but definately before collapse... they may have remained inside post rescue until the building collapsed but it was NOT by choice. I have listened to the Charleston audio at least 30 times, they were in trouble earlier than post rescue/collapse.<br />
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Training and Advocating Scene Assessment is definately not disrespectful, but your choice of words in the announcement of the future FASNY training classes might be considered as such though.<br />
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Nobody committed themselves and died in an attempt to save a sofa. Correct me if I'm wrong, but…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-14:889755:Comment:11260082008-08-14T20:04:51.958ZArt "ChiefReason" Goodrichhttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/xchief22
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Charleston FD and its chief described in some articles as "old school"? Which is to say that new tactics/new technology is absent from a pre-plan, perhaps?<br />
I'm asking and not trying to be disrespectful.<br />
And the chief has since retired.<br />
The earlier points that I was making was that; leaders control what firefighters do on the fireground.<br />
If someone got in too far or went in at all; if it was a command decision, then it was a failure in leadership.<br />
If you…
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Charleston FD and its chief described in some articles as "old school"? Which is to say that new tactics/new technology is absent from a pre-plan, perhaps?<br />
I'm asking and not trying to be disrespectful.<br />
And the chief has since retired.<br />
The earlier points that I was making was that; leaders control what firefighters do on the fireground.<br />
If someone got in too far or went in at all; if it was a command decision, then it was a failure in leadership.<br />
If you cannot account for all of your firefighters, it is a failure of leadership.<br />
If you are going to pass the buck, make excuses and otherwise deny responsibility, then you aren't ready for leadership.<br />
My remarks are in no way a reflection of how I feel about the Charleston FD, the tragic event or how or why the deaths occurred.<br />
My comments are about leadership in general.<br />
If you take my comments the wrong way, then that is your problem.<br />
TCSS.<br />
Art With all due respect FETC, th…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-14:889755:Comment:11238142008-08-14T14:49:57.403ZMary Ellen Sheahttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/MaryEllenShea
With all due respect FETC, that subject was grabbed at 7:21---the FF's were at that point all on low air, yet remained inside while the situation and scene began to devolve and then collapsed at 7:45.<br />
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I am a major advocate for safety and training as well, and if we can't learn from mistakes, and there were mistakes that resulted in FF fatalities, then what's the point?<br />
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How is advocating for scene assessment and risk management disrespectful? How is a passion for FF safety and survival and a…
With all due respect FETC, that subject was grabbed at 7:21---the FF's were at that point all on low air, yet remained inside while the situation and scene began to devolve and then collapsed at 7:45.<br />
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I am a major advocate for safety and training as well, and if we can't learn from mistakes, and there were mistakes that resulted in FF fatalities, then what's the point?<br />
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How is advocating for scene assessment and risk management disrespectful? How is a passion for FF safety and survival and a desire to prevent scenarios like this from happening again disrespectful? I think it is making things m…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-14:889755:Comment:11237772008-08-14T14:42:19.678ZPaul Montpetithttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/Heuvelton
I think it is making things more difficult to sense when you have gone too far....the old days when you used your ears as a heat detector are gone.....thankfully....LOL...But now if we don't use our heads we may find ourselves in deep sh-t and past the point of safely operating.....New equipment may save your butt, but then only if you use it as it is intended.....remember the addage...."Risk a lot to save a lot, Risk a little to save a little..." Stay safe all and always keep the faith.....Paul
I think it is making things more difficult to sense when you have gone too far....the old days when you used your ears as a heat detector are gone.....thankfully....LOL...But now if we don't use our heads we may find ourselves in deep sh-t and past the point of safely operating.....New equipment may save your butt, but then only if you use it as it is intended.....remember the addage...."Risk a lot to save a lot, Risk a little to save a little..." Stay safe all and always keep the faith.....Paul Mary, I am a major advocate t…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-14:889755:Comment:11237322008-08-14T14:33:58.884ZFETChttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/Bill72
Mary, I am a major advocate towards firefighter safety, always have and always will be.<br />
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I am a little taken back by the choice of your words, "We lost 9 firefighters in Charleston for what? To save some burning sofas?"<br />
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The reports from the Charleston Super Sofa Store fire, cite flaws in many different aspects of that incident. But let's not forget that every guy at that fire was trying to save the lives, it wasn't about saving sofas. Audio tapes prove they had subject(s) trapped in the…
Mary, I am a major advocate towards firefighter safety, always have and always will be.<br />
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I am a little taken back by the choice of your words, "We lost 9 firefighters in Charleston for what? To save some burning sofas?"<br />
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The reports from the Charleston Super Sofa Store fire, cite flaws in many different aspects of that incident. But let's not forget that every guy at that fire was trying to save the lives, it wasn't about saving sofas. Audio tapes prove they had subject(s) trapped in the breakroom on a cellphone, they were attempting to locate him along with fighting the fire.<br />
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Comments like that are disrespectful to the brothers that gave their lives that day. Good men, good firefighters with all the best intentions. Godspeed the Charleston-9. May you rest in peace... The Firemen's Association of…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-14:889755:Comment:11235302008-08-14T13:53:54.416ZMary Ellen Sheahttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/MaryEllenShea
The Firemen's Association of the State of NY (FASNY) and VFIS have partnered up to deliver "Fire Combat: Rules of Engagement" across New York State this fall.<br />
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This 3 hour class will define and advocate the need for a cultural change within the fire service relating to safety, supervision, accountability and personal responsibility. Focusing greater attention on the integration of risk management within incident management at all levels, attendees will enhance their personal and organizational…
The Firemen's Association of the State of NY (FASNY) and VFIS have partnered up to deliver "Fire Combat: Rules of Engagement" across New York State this fall.<br />
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This 3 hour class will define and advocate the need for a cultural change within the fire service relating to safety, supervision, accountability and personal responsibility. Focusing greater attention on the integration of risk management within incident management at all levels, attendees will enhance their personal and organizational accountability for health and safety throughout the fire service.<br />
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In other words.....Take the time to make an informed risk assessment on scene....and if you see something that looks dicey that "Upper Management' might have missed, speak up!!<br />
We lost 9 firefighters in Charleston for what? To save some burning sofas?<br />
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Here's the training schedule thus far for anyone in NY or surrounding areas...<br />
• Tuesday, Oct. 7: Kingsbury Volunteer Hose Co. # 1, Kingsbury NY, 7-10 pm.<br />
• Wednesday, Oct. 8: East Syracuse-Minoa Central H.S., East Syracuse, NY, 7-10 pm.<br />
• Thursday, Oct. 9: North Bay F.D. , North Bay, NY, 7-10 pm.<br />
• Thursday, Oct. 16: Erie County Training Ctr., Cheektowaga, NY, 7-10 pm.<br />
• Tuesday, Oct. 21: Colonie Fire Company: Colonie, NY, 7-10 pm.<br />
• Wednesday, Oct. 22: Chenango County Training Ctr., Norwich, NY, 7-10 pm.<br />
• Thursday, Oct. 23: Putnam County Fire Training Center: Carmel, NY, 7-10 pm.<br />
• Tuesday, Nov. 11: Loch Sheldrake Fire Department. Sullivan County, 7-10 pm. Or how about the pass devices…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-14:889755:Comment:11214002008-08-14T03:35:33.218ZRalph Longhttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/RalphLong
Or how about the pass devices we all are suppose to have on our gear, They do have the ones to alert you when temps reach the get out now situation. Yes they are expensive and we do our fund drives but they work.<br />
But I agree with Dan and Sean, I to joined the fire service in the days that your ears were the indicators, and riding the beaver tail of the engine. 24 years now and myself and some of us old timers still go to training and classes. Because things do change from day to day.<br />
My company…
Or how about the pass devices we all are suppose to have on our gear, They do have the ones to alert you when temps reach the get out now situation. Yes they are expensive and we do our fund drives but they work.<br />
But I agree with Dan and Sean, I to joined the fire service in the days that your ears were the indicators, and riding the beaver tail of the engine. 24 years now and myself and some of us old timers still go to training and classes. Because things do change from day to day.<br />
My company we train every chance we get and take classes and review.<br />
Training and learning is a daily process.<br />
Keep up the good work everyone and Stay safe. Everyone goes Home. I also forgot to mention that…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-03:889755:Comment:10371462008-08-03T12:34:52.309ZFETChttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/Bill72
I also forgot to mention that I agree with many others that we are tasked to do more with less...
I also forgot to mention that I agree with many others that we are tasked to do more with less... Dan,
This has been a great d…tag:my.firefighternation.com,2008-08-01:889755:Comment:10280392008-08-01T02:09:43.493ZFETChttps://my.firefighternation.com/profile/Bill72
Dan,<br />
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This has been a great debate for years between leather lungers and the newbies. I lived through being harassed for wearing a BA to a dumpster or car fire in the early days.<br />
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I for one, believe the gear HAD to become better for a few different reasons, that were out of our control. The greatest invention of its time, (the SCBA) provided us with an opportunity to go in deeper than before, rescue people who were out of reach before, and also remain in there for longer to fight. Longer than…
Dan,<br />
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This has been a great debate for years between leather lungers and the newbies. I lived through being harassed for wearing a BA to a dumpster or car fire in the early days.<br />
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I for one, believe the gear HAD to become better for a few different reasons, that were out of our control. The greatest invention of its time, (the SCBA) provided us with an opportunity to go in deeper than before, rescue people who were out of reach before, and also remain in there for longer to fight. Longer than our ears would allow. But lets back it up a bit, before BA's the leather lungers would hold their breath and go in for a hit or grab. (nuts) but that was the case and they were fighting fires more than us, but the fires were not the same as ours. They had to be concerned with primarily CO poisioning; they would go to at window, puke and go back in for more. Most of them have already past, lung CA, and if you still some who come in for Sunday coffee then they are the minority these days. GOD BLESS EM!<br />
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Our fires are hotter (BTU wise) because the manufacturing of new furnishings. Plastics, synthetics, etc. All in which we see in our routine building, car, or dumpster fire as a major HAZMAT of toxic chemicals. CO, Hydrogren Cyanide, Benzene, Tolulene, Acrolein, and on and on... All stuff that when super-heated will KILL US with one or two good breaths. Not to mention that the old days a 1100 degree flashover for CO was the common training benchmark. Remember, is the carpet off-gassing yet? then time to bail or vent immediately. Well new list of toxic chemicals of produce some unique hazards alone, Acrolein for instance has a flashpoint of 350-400 degrees (off the top of my head) Hello? now I see why almost everyday we hear of another crew getting caught in a flashover. Hell in the gear we are given today, most kids will never feel that little amount of heat. Why, because they have had little to ZERO true THERMAL INSULT RECOGNITION TRAINING. The SCBA came-a-long before the furnishings changed, but when they did, the manufacturer's made sure they kept the SCBA up on the chemical side; negative pressure or demand valves went bye-bye and positive pressure was in. So our lungs are protected as lonmg as you wear the damn thing, not get caught running out of air. Now our gear had to get better because the fires were hotter and the brothers were staying in longer with this great new SCBA, hence the common neck and ear burns of the early days. So we have been subjected to now being wrapped up or encapsulated in Full PPE, the stuff the new kids only know and have no clue why we actually have what we have today... OK enough history lesson, and I hope the juniors and newbies were listening.<br />
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So where do we go from here. Well the PPE and SCBA is here to stay, going backwards is not an option in my opinion. If big cities want to go backwards with hip boots and no hoods, that is there choice, but let the brothers have the option to wear all that is available to us. You see, in today's Cold Smoke Explosion (obscure Vinnie Dunn reference) I love the guy, he used to preach that and people would pretty much laugh in the early days, but he was looking at the newer furnishings and seeing brothers say it wasn't that hot Chief? but the place some-how flashed. This was all before the labs and testing we have today... So I for one am going to be all covered up and ready for the possible bad shit.<br />
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Being better prepared is the key. The Flashover simulator is OK in my eyes, but we are burning class A material and it is not producing the same flashovers as you see in the real world. It is much safer though. I think if taught to us, that hey this is what it will look like but be advised the temps may be ALOT lower guys... that would be beneficial. REMEMBER PENCIL, PENCIL, FOG, identify the insult! Also good quality THERMAL INSULT RECOGNITION training. This is something I have been doing and focusing on with my training business. Really showing guys what 300, 400, 600, 800 degrees feels like, and telling them the temps from the gauges. Guys can see the fire, feel the heat or what little heat they can through the gear at the time. Give them the temps and that registers in their head. When you call out 800 and they are on their knees (moving, figiting like a little kid needig to go pee, LOL) they know that those signs or indicators are REAL and will remember its time to get out or vent immeidately. I wrote an article in Fire Engineering, Feb. 2007 called "Interior Benchmarking" which is something I developed from years of live fire training. It teaches us to benchmark our progress throughout the structure and take note of conditions/surroundings. If you have a old copy kicking around, check it out.<br />
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New gear is great but only if we train, train, train and I don't mean crawling around the firestation following an uncharged hoseline with wax paper on our masks. I mean in some REAL heat brother! Stay safe. Bill<br />
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FETC<br />
<a href="http://www.fetcservices.com">www.fetcservices.com</a>