Just getting some input the ups and downs of using a 2 1/2 inch line as a IA attack line would like all input. thanks
AZFIREFIGHTER

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Michael,

Here's the evidence that you did indeed make these two mutually-exclusive arguements in two different places in this discussion.

Here are your quotes...

"I view 2 and a half as supply line and see no reason to stick a nozzle on it......but to each their own, and good luck moving the supply line once its charged!!!"

...and this one...

"Please pay attention so I won't have to go through ALL of this again.

I said 2 1/2 is supply line
Someone said it isn't"

As opposed to this comment you also made...

"But I will say once more (and I'm sure not for the last time) MY INPUT/opinion/feelings/the way I operate, is that a 2.5 inch line as an INTERIOR attackline is useless (and all that other that I said earlier) BECAUSE I feel that if a 2.5 is needed the operation should be defensive and therefore should have masterstreams in operation along with the 2.5 inch line being used from the outside (unless the only way to reach the building perimeter is with 2.5 inch lines...because masterstreams can not access it)"

You keep insisting that the rest of us need to go back and re-read your posts and that if there's a communication problem that it's our reading comprehension and not what you write or how you write it.

I did go back and re-read your post, and I backed up what I said about your confused posts with direct cut-and-paste of your own words...in quotes. So, which is it...you're never going to put a nozzle on the 2.5 that you see as only being a supply line, or you're going to put a nozzle on it and use it defensively? Either way, the two philosophies you posted are mutually exclusive, which means that both of them can't possibly be accurate.
As usual you gotta keep spouting your personal philosophy as gospel. Your answer to my first paragraph makes no sense. You used the phrase "far gone". My interpretation was a fire so involved, that any interior work, with any size line, would be futile and dangerous. In the second paragraph, read the entire sentence. I'm just expanding on Ben's reference to bringing a pea shooter to a firefight. My engines have 1.75 lines for ALL firefighting, not just interior, along with the ability to use a 2.5 where needed.I have not, nor will I "spout my personal philosophy as gospel".....I don't remember even posting ANY of my personal philosophy, and if anyone takes another mans words as gospel.....I can hope that they will soon realize how dangerous that is, and hopefully they will learn to consider all things and then make a decision of their own.

I read the entire sentence, and I don't know how else to explain it to you....obviously we operate differently.
My engines have 1.5 lines......along with the ability to use 2.5 where needed (it just seems our needs are a little different)


As far as "slobberknocking" goes, that's the mechanical abuse you are putting your rig and hose through, supplying long, small diameter lines. Based on previously quoted calculations you are already near or over 250 psi for a 400' line and close to 300 psi for a 600' line. I'm not going to prattle on about all of the potential mechanical issues.Thats what I figured it was, another way to knock another dept/person that operates differently than you do

At one point, you tell somebody if their rig can't handle the work, to go and buy new rigs. No, I don't have the quote exact, so don't start jumping on me. Last time I looked, fire apparatus was not something you obtained at the drop of a hat, and not too many departments don't have 6 figures in their "slush fund". Although, some Chiefs (including myself, back in the day) wouldn't mind that.
I promise I won't jump.....and I said that if they had problems pumping lines properly, they might want to spec out new apparatus.
I have no way to appropriately comment of other depts. purchasing power or options
For some reason it didnt load up....Here is my second attempt
Attachments:
I just wanted to provide this one last tidbit of information....not really for you but for anyone who is looking on better ways to deploy the 2 1/2 interior.....I know you dont "dig it" so you will probably find it dangerous, ridiculous, or some other adjective that you could use to put it down.

Now that I have done that I am done with the argument....If anyone has any questions about the powerpoint I will respond to those.
WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT SOG'S/SOP'S---WHATEVER- IF YOU CAN GET A GOOD SOLID WATER SUPPLY GOING FROM THE VERY GET GO-AND 2/12'S WORK--- THEN GREAT..WHERE I LIVE AT--WE HAVE HYDRANTS--BUT NOT EVERYWHERE--AND ON A GOOD DAY WE MIGHT GET 40# OF PRESSURE OUT OF IT. IF WE ARE IN AN AREA THAT HAS NONE....WELL THEN THE 1000-12OO GALLONS I HAVE MIGHT BE ALL THAT WE START WITH--I WANT TO SAVE THAT WATER- WE ALL KNOW BLOWING THAT MUCH WATER OUT CAN DRAIN A TANK IN 5-6 MINUTES....AND IF MY CREW AND I NEED TO GET OUT....WE MAY NEED THAT PRECIOUS WATER TO GET OUT--IF THE FIRE IS THAT BIG AND WE CAN'T PUT IT OUT....IM GETTING MY GUYS THE HELL OUT....LIFE SAFETY IS THE VERY FIRST THING IN THIS BUSINESS.....AS IT WAS SAID HERE... YOU WIN SOME YOU LOSE SOME.... I KNOW FOR MY DEPARTMENT....WE ALL GO HOME IN THE END.....AND 600 FOOT STRETCHES ARE A HUGE STRAIN ON PUMPS...I KNOW OF DEPARTMENT AROUND HERE THAT DID THAT AND THEY BLEW EVERY HOSE THAT WAS ON THE GROUND.....THEN WHAT DO FIGHT WITH? YOUR JOHNSON???
Assuming you have 1000 gallon tank weather you deliver through a 150 gpm device or a 300 gpm device if it will not put it out then it will not put it out.....Saving water in my opinion is a fallacy there is no reward for putting out the fire with the most water left in the tank.

If the fire requires a 300 gpm flow and you utilize a lesser water applicator then you have already lost no matter how much water you save. Not saying that you do not do this but training your pump operators to call out the water level over the radio helps alot as well as utilizing a blitz attack.
I didn't read that in the fine print when I joined this site (actually I didn't read any of the fine print)

And if people aren't smart enough to figure out what they posted.....they have alot more to worry about than my typo's and unforgivable grammer mistakes.

This post was completed without the help of spellcheck.....for everyones enjoyment
Kali posted the not bold words

and I posted the bold words that will follow (hopefully this helps.....but I somehow doubt it)

Exactly -

And this from someone who demanded "properly quote me."There has been (and I am sure NEVER will be) a reason for me to demand anything of you, I only demand things when it matters

Gee, I thought that meant using quotation when you use someone's exact words.It could also be copying their words.....like I have done here....look, you wrote something....and I answered it

Awww, heck, I'll just come out and say it - I'm just one of those "mindless minions" who follow the accepted rules of grammar.among other things it appears

Even goddesses and Division Chiefs are subject to the authority of Strunk and White. As for Michael C. Harrison, well, not so much.Exactly.....now you seem to be learning, I am subject to the authority of my mom (out of respect) and my God (out of choice)....other than that I am my own man

Kali
Oh yeah.....while I got ya here......any chance of you repying to the above posts (that you obviously read....yet chose to dance around) or is this just your way of deflecting and redirecting? Just asking, because with your "holier than thou" attitude.....I figured you would have an answer for everything......and not just turn into an internet English professor......not a demand, just a question.
Michael,

In your response to my hypothetical concerning the church fire you indicated that you would likely employ "numerous 1.5's" to fight this fire. That goes without saying. However, numerous 1.5's will only help you if your only issue is the amount of water you need to extinguish the fire. But as I pointed out, the 2.5 not only gives you more water than a 1.5, or even multiple 1.5's, it also has greater reach and penetration than a 1.5 line. If the 1.5 line is not reaching and penetrating the seat of the fire, numerous 1.5's not reaching and penetrating the seat of the fire won't help. Wouldn't the available manpower required to operate numerous 1.5's be better employed operating and advancing one or two 2.5's?If you can't reach the seat of the fire....extend the line. And it appears that we disagree on the proper utilization of manpower on the fireground among other things

Whether you agree that a 2.5 is superior to a 1.5 as an interior attack line in certain occupancies is not really the issue I'm trying to address. What I challenged you on from the beginning was your assertion that a 2.5 as an interior attack line was dangerous, useless and ridiculous. Putting aside the unfortunate uncivil tone this discussion has taken, and disregarding the relatve merits of the two different hoselines being compared, have you at least come to appreciate that using a 2.5 as an interior attack line is not necessarily dangerous, useless and ridiculous?Some of the reasons, once again, that I consider using a 2.5 as an interior line as "useless, dangerous, and ridiculous" are......In my opinion, if the building is so far gone that you need a 2.5 inch line, there is no reason to then go offensive.....therefore if, in my opinion, you need a 2.5 because the building is that far gone, it would be "dangerous, useless and ridiculous to be sending anyone inside with that line........I don't know what else to tell ya.
Hallelujah! You finally made your point. Go through 19 pages of input on this topic, and you will find a lot of people who agree with you. I touched base with a cousin of mine recently who was reminiscing about taking the reel line for an interior attack, street clothes, and no SCBA. Guess the job has changed a little since he retired in 1975. I'm willing to "agree to disagree", and put an end to the useless feud. Stay safe out there.I would say that the job has changed considerably since he retired, and I hope you aren't trying to imply that I have the same mindset as your cousin (if you were, you are entitled to that opinion, but I can assure that you are mistaken)
And there are countless people that disagree with me, on various things (and I am ok with that)....I didn't come (or even post in this thread) to try to get people to agree with me, or change to the way I operate......I came here to give my input


I extended the olive branch before I read your reply to my last posting. Same deal goes, let's put an end to this.I have no hard feelings or animosity towards anyone here
All I was going to say is that was a well thought out powerpoint presentation, and the only adjustment we made for it to work for us....was to use 1.5 inch handlines :-)
LMAO!! YES THIS THING REALLY HAS GROWN SOME LEGS.....TIME FOR EVERYBODY STOP BEATING THIS DEAD HORSE...WE ARE ALL RIGHT...WITH OUR ANSWERS/ OPINIONS.......WE NEED TO PUT "IT"BACK INTO OUR TURNOUT DRAWERS AND CALL IT A DAY.....PLEASE REMEMBER TO STAY SAFE WHEN PROTECTING YOUR "OTHER FAMILY"......CHRIS

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