Just getting some input the ups and downs of using a 2 1/2 inch line as a IA attack line would like all input. thanks
AZFIREFIGHTER

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Michael,

That's complete B.S. I haven't ever said that I can't bear to have you post your opinions on this site or anything like it.I was simply giving justification on why I continue to post here......you keep asking

Refusing to use interior 2.5 inch lines is "useless, dangerous, and ridiculous" if the situation is a hot, fast-spreading, incipient fire an a large, enclosed structure.And I state that, entering a structure that is so far gone that a 2.5 interior line is needed is useless, dangerous, and ridiculous......no matter what the situation

"Pushing in" with small-caliber hand lines for hot, fast-spreading, incipient fires in large, enclosed structures is "useles, dangerous, and ridiculous". As WestPhilly pointed out, and as Charleston found to their sorrow, when you do that, you put the firefighters too far into the structure with inadequate water power to overcome the fire.And I do not agree with a multitude of things that Charleston did on that fire, along with many other things.
It seems like you are somehow indicating/assuming/accusing that I am somehow justifying or defending Charleston's actions on that fire (I could be wrong.....that is just what it seems like)


(Hint - an incipient fire, by definition, means that the structure is not "far gone")Thank you for that hint.......since you explained what incipient means.....I now realize that my dept and I should change all of our operations to mirror the operations of your dept........how could I have ever have been so stupid to do or say anything that you don't agree with......please send me all the current SOP's, SOG's and any other information about your dept. so I may institute them with no delay.

In that same situation, if you wait until the fire is defensive to use 2.5 inch interior lines, then eventually you'll unnecessarily lose savable buildings and possibly the civilians in them.

You still haven't been able to explain how an extra 100 GPM per company in a large structure is a bad thing, either. (Hint - situationally, it's a very good thing.)I do not think I have ever said that (I am sure you shall set me straight though)
I HAVE said that if a building is so far gone that a 2.5 interior line is needed....then it is my neanderthal like, uneducated (apparently) and 1950's tactically thinking opinion.....that it is useless, dangerous, and ridiculous to be sending people in with that line.......but you feel free to do as you wish


If you insist on pushing in with overly long (400 to 600 foot) 1.5 inch lines in large enclosed structure fires simply because you refuse to consider the use of 2.5 inch interior lines as a more appropriate tool, then you're using a tactic that has killed firefighters on several occasions, including 6/18/07. That insistance "because it's always worked before" sounds suspiciously like "...because we've always done it that way."One could argue that the tactic of sending ANYONE into ANY fire is a tactic that has led to numerous deaths of firefighters........and I will assure you that when appropriate (HINT.....that means if the structure isn't too far gone) I will continue to enter those structures to do my job. That's what I signed up to do.

And you may keep posting (as many times as would be convenient for you to justify your argument) the old, "...because we've always done it that way." in an attempt to elude(somehow) that, THAT is my mindset.
I will only acknowledge that by stating that you couldn't be farther from the truth. (yet I am sure that I once again am wrong.......since we do not agree on the use of 2.5 interior lines I MUST be inferior to you......and I must have that same mindset.....that must be the answer)
I apologize for insinuating that gpm could be calculated using a pitot guage........how could I be so stupid?
It seems that it would be a little harder to manuever inside going around corners and such. One would fatigue alot quicker lugging the hose around. I think 1 3/4 is still the way to go. Use the 2 1/2 for defensive exterior attack or maybe even offensive from a defensive stance. And ofcourse exposure protection.
2 1/2 is just to heavy to go inside with, i mean you can but why work harder when a 1 3/4 line can do just about the same for a I.A.
Robert, that should be fairly obvious, given that standpipe discharges tend to be 2.5 inch diameter, particularly if they're NFPA and BCC-compliant.
Becuase the 1 3/4 cant do what the 2 1/2 can.....Im not saying that you need the 2 1/2 all the time for most residential fires you dont....but I have had fires in large homes with several rooms off, fires in commercial occupancies, and high rise fires that all required a larger caliber flow that the 1 3/4 could not offer.

As for it being to heavy....yes it is heavy but properly tipped with a smooth bore nozzle, and pumped at the correct pressure, proper training, and communication 2 firefighters can advance a line that proves you an excess of 300 gpm no 1 3/4 in the world can do that......How do I know??? Cause we do it every day in my FD.

I look at it like this the 1 3/4 line is like drinking water from a dixie cup....sure sometimes one dixie cup will quench your thirst.....but when your really thirsty it takes several dixie cups to quench your thirst.....In stead if you had a big jug of water you could drink as much as you needed to the first time and not have to keep refilling dixie cups.
No problem
Looks like good comments all around, just remember big water for a big fire, manpower, structure type for a few considerations before that hoss gets laid!
I'm neither trying to bullbait or browbeat you, I just want a simple answer to a simple question. You refuse to answer it.

Here's the simple question...again. What part of an additional 100 GPM per company for an interior attack on a fast-spreading incipient fire in a large, open-span building is bad?

Note: this question specifically excludes a "far gone" building, so your use of that term isn't responsive to the question.
I am gonna just stay the hell out of this one. No matter what ai say here is gonna get me a nasty reply form one side or the other. "WHY CANT WE JUST ALL GET ALONG?'' TCSS
Michael;

I'll agree that using a 2.5 on a single family dwelling may be overkill. If the fire is so advanced that it ccan't be handled with 2 1.5 or 1.75 lines, then it should probably be handled from the exterior. It's likely that there will be no savable victims, and the SFD will probably be a total loss (especially if it's built recently).
We need to look st the size of the box the fire is in, however. A fire in the rear of a WalMart store may be too big for a 1.5 or 1.75 line, yet still be small enough for a 2.5, and leave much of the building and contents as savable. Another point is while the fire may be containable with the 1.5 upon arrival, may be too much for it once you've done your size up, deployed the line, charged it, and worked your way back to it. You could pull a second line, but then, of course, the fire has grown some more, and may now be too much for the 2 small handlines. a 2.5 attack line in this situation would be warranted, safe, and probably have a better outcome for all involved.

Point - The building isn't necessarily a total loss just because it looks like it needs something more than a 1.5 or 1.75 line.

Also, for mid- or high rise buildings, we need to look at the occupancy. The 1.5 or 1.75 hooked up to the standpipe may be quite acceptable for a building of small apartments, where we know the fire is contained to one unit, but what if the fire has taken two or more units? The 1.5 may also not be enough if that same floor is an open floor plan cubicle office area.

I would never tell another dept. what tactics to use (unless they were in my town, on my job), just keep it in mind that the line is anther tool, and can be used safely.
I would say....that depends

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