No the attack was strictly defensive. To save the structure to the side. I was using this as an example of one man can man the 2 1/2. Of course an interior attack would be much more difficult but not impossible. A lot of times an interior attack is a room and contents. The only time to take on an almost a fully involved interior attack is a rescue and hopefully ( but we all know hardly ever) we are well staffed. Also another application of a 2 1/2 is a "blitz line". Like dumping a lot of water in a garage to knock it down till a water supply can be established.
Yes...600' 1.5 lines (it's amazing what can be done ain't it?)
And I am well aware of the capabilities and limitations of our pumpers (and if you have apparatus that can not handle pumping the lines you use.....you should spec. out new apparatus)
It is time for me to step out of the dark ages and put aside my personal prejudices towards new ideas.......yet I should use the lines other depts have used for decades?
That sounds kinda funny to me....but whatever (you won't be reading this)
And it's time for ME to become a positive change agent in my dept.
I find it AWESOME that you now know me on a personal level.....thats an amazing talent.
And even with the "bull baiting" of....maybe the excuse of "we can't win them all" is good enough for me and my dept., I will simply state that it isn't, and leave it at that for now.
And I learn things everyday.....just as I have learned lots just by having conversations with you......have a wonderful day (if you happen to read this anymore)
No need to wait for the translation - the problem here is that the pattern you see has a big blind spot right in the center.
You see nothing in between using small-caliber interior lines and 2.5 inch and master streams on the outside. News Flash - the building doesn't have to be "far gone" in order to take 2.5 inch inside. A 2.5 inch interior line can provide the extra water power to keep the fire from becoming "far gone", as can happen when you take a 1.5 inch into a situation where an interior 2.5 inch is indicated.
I see you're still ducking the question about why you don't want to take an extra 100 GPM with you when it's indicated.
If you can flake out an extra 400 feet of 1.5 inch prior to charging it, then you can flake out the same length of 2.5 inch and then charge it with very little additional effort. That gives you more water power, lower friction loss, and less stress on the pump.
I have studied better ways to fight fires - for over 3 decades - and while I don't claim to know everything, I know that using 1.5 inch lines longer than 250 feet or so is not a best practice, regardless of whether the line is preconnected or not.
Here is the 2 1/2 high rise pack power point with all of our research and pictures on how we deploy and utilize a 2 1/2 on high rise and big box occupancies, keep in mind we utilize 3 inch hose for leaderlines but demonstrated some different techniques and the flexibility of the 2 1/2 in various operational modes. Keep in mind we operate with 3 man engine companies (driver, officer, firefighter) and we routinely have success using the 2 1/2 in two and one man operations.
Feel free to use it at your FD and make any adjustments you see fit for it to work for you.
Mike, i went back a reread all the pages in this discussion. I agree with you on some points. I, like you agree that some depts copy and think because the FDNY does it one way it is the only way. That is wrong. I also do not agree with everything the NFPA writes nor do i agree with the " I was taught this in class" or the " The ifsta manual states this" mentality. Alot of people who post on this forum have little to no true experience and can only quote what they have read or had read to them! This was not meant for any one person.
What i dont agree with is the use of a 2.5 as a supply line or defensive only. If your dept still uses a handline... to be honest with you thought it died with the invention of the gas engine...then good luck with that.
Michael, apparently you still need the interpreter. What Robert is indicating is that departments that followed the practices you are defending so strongly here have had LODDs and even multiple LODDs as a result of following those practices.
In the context he's discussing, you share an attitude that has demonstrably contributed to firefighter LODDs. That doesn't mean that you personally are responsible...yet. On the other hand, Charleston's previous chief shared your views, and we all know the result. The lack of a 2.5 inch interior line early in that fire contributed to exactly what you defend so vigorously - 2.5 inch and master streams on the outside, and dead firefighters on the inside. Like it or not, when you continue to claim that 2.5 inch lines are for exterior use only, you're perpetuating the mindset. You're discussing it in a public place, remember?
Your insistance that there is no place for a 2.5 inch interior line is akin to insisting that just because you don't like the letter B that the alphabet jumps from A to C without another letter in between. Most of the rest of us don't share that blind spot with you. We think your dogma is not only a blind spot, but that it's dangerous. Once again, if you don't think that your dogma applies anywhere but in your own department, why did you even respond? I find that hard to believe.
We understand your point exactly...we just strongly disagree with you, based on science, well-thought-out rationales, proven SOGs, and the disasterous results for other fire departments who practiced what you preach. If the practice you espouse really is just intended for your own department, how about keeping it there so you don't tempt someone else into using it...since it so obviously applies only to your department, as you've insisted upon so strongly?
Kali, when you stated, "Hmmmm.... we use the 2 1/2 for interior attack - big fire needs big lines, and we have the "man"power to do so. And I said ,"You will (or should) do what YOUR dept expects you to do.....meaning that if you worked or volunteered at my departments and didn't pull the lines you were ordered to use....you would be fired or placed on charges (career dept)....or you would walk back to the firehouse, grab your belongings and politely asked to never come back (volunteer dept)Can you understand that ? YOU use 2.5 as an interior line...it works for you GREAT....we don't, and then I went on to explain that you would operate OUR way if you worked or volunteered here (just as I would operate your way if I was there)
The folks whose homes and places of worship we've used it on recently probably wouldn't agree with Michael C. Harrison's opinion that using the 2 1/2 was "useless, dangerous," or even a little bit "ridiculous." As for "a waste of time," actually it was extremely efficient.I doubt the homeowners or place of worship owners would care about anyone's opinion.....as long as their lives and property were intact.......so I will have to agree with you......I am almost 100% sure that your homeowners don't agree with my opinion (and I also doubt they care one way or the other)
Oh yeah, BTW we're not "mindless minions" either. In MY ever so humble OPINION, anyways.IF you think I was calling YOU a mindless minion (and from the above comment it appears that way to me) then that must be because you have implemented changes or operations in your dept ONLY because "so and so " fd operates that way.....because I said I am glad my dept isn't run by a bunch of mindless minions that blindly follow other depts (not the exact quote.....but I really don't feel like going back and looking for it)
As an example, if FDNY still used horse drawn apparatus, and the Chief of the City of Kali FD decided to sell ALL the motorized apparatus and go with horse drawn.....just because FDNY does it like that......then in my opinion the Kali FD Chief would be a mindless minion..........BUT.....if, in the city of Kali, there was a huge problem with importing diesel or gasoline.....and apparatus sits around useless on a regular basis, and that Kali Chief went to horse drawn apparatus because they looked at FDNY's horse drawn apparatus, and Kali tried it out and it worked for them.....I (in my opinion) would think that same Chief was pretty smart and ingenious
Here's a newsflash for Michael C. Harrison - Slamming others as "mindless" and denigrating respected departments is not what this discussion is about. Ironically you complain about your right to express your opinion, yet you are dismissive and disrespectful of others.Whom did I slam? and what dept. (respected or not) have I denigrated? And I do not complain about my right to express my opinion.......I laugh when people think they can suppress it.....everything else, I do out of pure enjoyment
I did quote you exactly - did you mean using an APA reference format when you demanded that I "properly quote" you? You said that using a 2 1/2 as an attack line was "USELESS, DANGEROUS, AND RIDICULOUS" - Oh, and the "mindless minions" insult was a direct quote from you as well.I hope I covered this in my above post using small words AND spellcheck....just for you!!
And what could you possibly be blathering about in these imaginary situations in which I would not follow orders and be put up on charges, or how you imagine my feelings were hurt by your comments, or how you imagine that my members will have "more faith in me" if I "impliment" (sic) changes?I believe (and hope) that my blathering post above also covers this too
And your sarcasm is almost lost on us. It would be helpful if you would use really small words (and maybe a spellchecker).Have these words been small enough? And today I am on a computer with spellcheck.....WOO HOO....but stay tuned for more of those horrible and unforgivable typos
Just FYI I've tried putting out fires with our SOP's but the pages tend to scatter embers. It would be great if our department used 1 3/4 rather than 2 1/2 lines in our hi rise packs - think of all the wages we would save if we didn't have to hire Sherpas to carry those things. And our local congregation would have had so much more room for parking if we had use 1 3/4 handlines rather than 2 1/2's for the last church fire - oh well, ya can't make parking lots of them all.I am very very proud that you picked lil old me of all people to inform of this great feat (altho I am unsure why exactly) and if your SOP's tend to scatter embers try getting some new ones....they might work better for ya.
Check with the Sherpa union before you lay those guys off, you don't want to get caught up in a lawsuit (I think that might have been an attempt to bust my chops about 2.5 hi rise packs being heavier than 1.5, except I never said anything about the weight of hi rise packs .....at all (but I'm sure I read this wrong)
And I bet that if you tried yer little heart out....you could make parking lots out of them all.......see, different depts have different goals ALONG with different ways of operating.......my depts. refuse to accept any kind of "parking lot" mentality, but like I have said becore....to each his own
I am well aware of what lines the FDNY uses, and the reasons they use them.......just as I am well aware of the lines my dept uses and why we use them......and I thank God everyday that my dept doesn't have a bunch of mindless minions running around doing things "just because _____ dept" does, and we want to be just like them.I went back and got it (just felt like being helpful tonite since I got the spellcheck on this computer) So...there it is,,,in all it's glory....so IF your, "Oh yeah, BTW we're not "mindless minions" either. In MY ever so humble OPINION, anyways" comment in anyway meant that you thought I was calling you a mindless minion (because that's what is looks like to me).......you MUST be guilty of "running around doing things "just because _____ dept" does, and we want to be just like them....now I'm tired and going to bed......TTYL (maybe)
Why should/would you enter a structure that is so "far gone" with any size line? That's borderline suicidal. You (or your officer) should know to back out of any structure if the line you have is not doing the job.That is what I have been saying (with different words) That is why I don't use 2.5 as interior line
Ben's post just above this uses the best analogy. Pea shooter to a firefight, 1-1/2" into anything bigger than a "room and contents" or any interior work on a building with fire blowing out all the windows is, was and always will be a bad idea. That's not dogma, all seeing eye or infinite wisdom. That's basic firefighting.So, you use 2.5 on anything bigger than a room off (that seems to be what you are saying)? If so, good for you....I am glad that works for you.
Your "was and always will be a bad idea" seems to be working just fine for me.....and you can argue that your point of view is basic firefighting, just as I can......but at the end of the day, your engines will have 2.5 lines on them for interior firefighting, and mine will have 1.5 on them for firefighting......I don't know how to make it any simpler .
Dude, if you want to pull 1-1/2" on every interior, and "slobberknock" your rig with some of the lengths you quote....you go right ahead. You don't have to answer to any of us here.Ok....thanks, even though I'm not really sure what slobberknocking is (I will just assume it is just another attempted knock on how other depts. operate....unless you clarify ), I will continue to pull 1.5 on interior attacks.......and you can continue to pull 2.5's on them, because you don't have to answer to any of us here either.
Starting to seem a little more peaceful around here.......kind of like people are starting to realize that people have different views, people operate differently....maybe