Just getting some input the ups and downs of using a 2 1/2 inch line as a IA attack line would like all input. thanks
AZFIREFIGHTER

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The very definition of "irony", isn't it?
Your initial post about 2.5 being used only defensively/with master streams didn't make the fine distinctions you're making now, and that's why several of us called you on it.

Thinking something within the friendly confines of your head isn't the same thing as posting it.

I highly doubt that the departments that WestPhilly, Kali, and the rest of us do things is because FDNY or anyone else does it that way. Your statement that some departments do that is pretty condescending and insulting, particularly given that you made such a broad statement - one that doesn't apply to the people with whom you engaged in this conversation or their departments.

If what you say doesn't really apply to the people that you're talking to, why say it in the first place???
Dave Bloom, you posted

"To repeat: How does a line with a maximum flow of 400 gpm relate to a device with a flow of up to 1000 gpm and more?

I bet if you lost the condescending attitude you are giving everybody, and scrolled back a couple of pages you would have found the question, like I did."

My answer is, and I scrolled back and saw where I had already answered,
but the answer is, the line with a maximum flow of 400gpm (the 2.5 inch handline) relates to devices with a flow of 1000 gpm or more in this way....in my depts they will be used in conjunction with each other on outside defensive operations.
If we use a 2.5 it is along with masterstreams (unless the area is inaccesable to those masterstreams)

I hope that answered your question
I do believe I stated that my jurisdictions have 2.5 inch handlines on the engines, and I stated how we use them.
If a carpenter hammer is needed.....we open the tool box and grab it......if the sledge hammer is needed, we grab it along with the giant pile driver and use them together.

I recall Tony P supporting my ability to voice my opinion and give my input ( the reason this thread was started) but I don't recall him supporting my position, that I don't use 2.5 inch line for interior attack.

And as for Charleston, I know what happened there, and I do not agree with pulling a booster line on a building/house fire.....and as I stated earlier, if they had used 2.5 and masterstreams....more than likely a very different outcome would have prevailed.
I agree.....and never stated otherwise.....but things do happen that are different from what you want/or think....thats just the world we live in.
And I highly doubt that those engineers designed their systems wrong just because you think otherwise.
Charleston's initial two engines on the SSS fire pulled a 1.5 inch line and a booster, according to the Routely Commission reports. That water power was approximately a 100 GPM 1.5 inch line and a 60 GPM booster, which is a total of 160 GPM.

If those same two engine companies had used a single 2.5 inch handline, offensively, inside the structure, they would have been able to apply 250 GPM with the same manpower and less overall time and effort.

Would you please explain how applying 90 GPM less with the same amount of manpower is a good thing?

Remember, it's not just the tools in the toolbox, it's how and where you use them. If you need the sledgehammer inside in order to prevent a later need for the jackhammer outside, then why use the sledgehammer outside and wait for the fire to grow to jackhammer proportions?

How was Charleston supposed to use master streams offensively in the early stages of that fire when it was clearly an offensive operation? Are you saying that they should have set up master streams for the initial interior operation?

If not, exactly what are you saying?
How bout this.....I grab the standpipe pack if I need it, I hook it to the standpipe and use it.

The best tool in MY toolbox for a standpiped building....is.....the standpipe pack, and if I need the line to be longer....I extend that line with another standpipe pack.

If there is a problem with the standpipe system, I throw the line out the window and have the driver hook it to the pump, charge it....and away we go.

And I don't do my job (volunteer or career) to impress the fire (or anything for that matter), I do it to put it out.
You still haven't explained how putting more volume on the fire is a bad thing, either with 2.5 inch interior attack lines or with an engineered fire protection system.

You might want to read the IFSTA manual chapter on building fire protection systems; the section on the standpipes with the 2.5 inch discharges designed for use with 2.5 inch hoselines inside the building, yanno?
Once again.....pm me if you want to do a ride along.

And no, not limited manpower (kind of the opposite actually) limited training....no.......limited experience.....no.

Now I could try to be just a childish and say that , "people that don't use 1.5 inch line are only scared of it due to lack of training and experience".....but I will just continue to say that if my depts need a 2.5, they also need masterstreams
Philly,

Actually, I only remember having two real disagreements with you, and one of them was based on admitted manpower and 1st alarm assignment differences, unless my memory is getting phoggy.
the SOP's dictate that a line will be pulled on house/building fires.
The size is up to the officer
Yep....we have a 400' 1.5 inch.....and sometimes extend it to 600 '.....and put fires out with it.
And we advance the 400 with one company with no problem.

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